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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.
    There's no problem. We are social animals and depend on living in community in order to survive. Hence we cooperate and obey the rules as established by society. Cooperation is an instinctive evolutionary trait which was naturally-selected as a survival mechanism, otherwise our species would have perished long ago.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      I have a good enough idea where my own sense of moral obligation came from. It's a combination of my innate sense of empathy, how my parents raised me, what is expected of me by my family, friends, and society, and my desire to be a good person so that I can look myself in the mirror, and enjoy the benefits of being seen as a good person by the people around me.

      As I said, this answer may not be good enough for you, for any number of reasons. But all that really matters is that it's good enough for me.
      What you describe is merely your own personal whims and not moral obligation. The fact is, if atheism is true, then you will have committed no sin even if you fail to live up to your own ideals simply because in a godless universe, you have no obligation to do one thing as opposed to another.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eider View Post

        I've already answered that question.
        Nature has ordained that many creatures care for their young, their families, their tribes and on.....
        We have developed just far enough to want to care for even more than that, extending to the ecology, the planet etc. It's natural.
        Surely you must concede that there have been countless times in your life when your first inclination was to satisfy your own desires at the expense of someone else. The question is, if atheism is true, then what obligation do you have to suppress that inclination?
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

          There's no problem. We are social animals and depend on living in community in order to survive. Hence we cooperate and obey the rules as established by society. Cooperation is an instinctive evolutionary trait which was naturally-selected as a survival mechanism, otherwise our species would have perished long ago.
          What you call "instinctive' is actually learned behaviors enforced on us by society. Children for instance, have to be taught to share. It doesn't come naturally, and in fact, it's something that even many adults struggle with. Take, for instance, the favorite target of liberals: the rich. They build financial empires on the basis of not sharing their wealth. The question is, if atheism is true, then what moral obligation do they have to do otherwise?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            Surely you must concede that there have been countless times in your life when your first inclination was to satisfy your own desires at the expense of someone else. The question is, if atheism is true, then what obligation do you have to suppress that inclination?
            The same as you, or my neighbour, or anybody ......

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              What you describe is merely your own personal whims and not moral obligation. The fact is, if atheism is true, then you will have committed no sin even if you fail to live up to your own ideals simply because in a godless universe, you have no obligation to do one thing as opposed to another.
              Well, I hope you continue to believe there is a God, because I'd hate for you to think you have no moral obligations.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                Well, I hope you continue to believe there is a God, because I'd hate for you to think you have no moral obligations.
                It is often said that the ad hominem fallacy is the most grudging, and for the opponent the most satisfying, admission of defeat.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by eider View Post

                  The same as you, or my neighbour, or anybody ......
                  Which is to say that if atheism is true, then one has no such obligation.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    It is often said that the ad hominem fallacy is the most grudging, and for the opponent the most satisfying, admission of defeat.
                    You can redefine "moral obligation" such that it doesn't exist unless there is a God. But you won't win any converts that way.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                      You can redefine "moral obligation" such that it doesn't exist unless there is a God. But you won't win any converts that way.
                      I'm not redefining anything. Moral obligation, by definition, requires a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, then, by definition, there can be no moral obligation. Q.E.D.

                      You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Which is to say that if atheism is true, then one has no such obligation.
                        No.
                        I answered the question and that needed no further interpretation.
                        A Deist, atheist, non theist, theist has the same drive to self, family, community or country integrity as the others in that list.

                        Unless you can answer for yourself?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          I'm not redefining anything. Moral obligation, by definition, requires a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, then, by definition, there can be no moral obligation. Q.E.D.

                          You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?
                          But no....
                          moral obligation requires a moral giver, however you might wish to define 'moral'.

                          Legal obligation requires a law giver.
                          A person who obeys laws is lawful.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by eider View Post
                            A Deist, atheist, non theist, theist has the same drive to self, family, community or country integrity as the others in that list.
                            Whatever you're referring to as a "drive" is nothing more than a whim or personal preference instilled in us by our culture and not an obligation. If you choose to do otherwise, have you really committed a wrong?
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              Whatever you're referring to as a "drive" is nothing more than a whim or personal preference instilled in us by our culture and not an obligation. If you choose to do otherwise, have you really committed a wrong?
                              My community will answer 'yes' as I would.
                              The urge or drove to risk oneself in various incidents in attempts to benefit others, this drive exists on a high % of folks regardless of their beliefs.

                              Equally our prisons are full of convicts who were selfish on various ways, folks of varying beliefs etc.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                I'm not redefining anything. Moral obligation, by definition, requires a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, then, by definition, there can be no moral obligation. Q.E.D.

                                You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?
                                Sometimes while discussing determinism/free will, someone will claim that free will doesn't exist, or that the existence of free will shows that the world is not deterministic. My response is that I believe free will exists, but it's not what they think it is. Even though we're both talking about free will, we're actually talking about two different things.

                                Similarly, when I run into someone who thinks that morality couldn't exist without a God, my response is that I think morality exists, but it's not what they think it is.

                                So yes, when you and I talk about morality, we're actually talking about two different things.

                                Comment

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