Originally posted by Mountain Man
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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Human Animal...
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I have a good enough idea where my own sense of moral obligation came from. It's a combination of my innate sense of empathy, how my parents raised me, what is expected of me by my family, friends, and society, and my desire to be a good person so that I can look myself in the mirror, and enjoy the benefits of being seen as a good person by the people around me.
As I said, this answer may not be good enough for you, for any number of reasons. But all that really matters is that it's good enough for me.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by eider View Post
I've already answered that question.
Nature has ordained that many creatures care for their young, their families, their tribes and on.....
We have developed just far enough to want to care for even more than that, extending to the ecology, the planet etc. It's natural.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
There's no problem. We are social animals and depend on living in community in order to survive. Hence we cooperate and obey the rules as established by society. Cooperation is an instinctive evolutionary trait which was naturally-selected as a survival mechanism, otherwise our species would have perished long ago.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Surely you must concede that there have been countless times in your life when your first inclination was to satisfy your own desires at the expense of someone else. The question is, if atheism is true, then what obligation do you have to suppress that inclination?
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
What you describe is merely your own personal whims and not moral obligation. The fact is, if atheism is true, then you will have committed no sin even if you fail to live up to your own ideals simply because in a godless universe, you have no obligation to do one thing as opposed to another.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Well, I hope you continue to believe there is a God, because I'd hate for you to think you have no moral obligations.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by eider View Post
The same as you, or my neighbour, or anybody ......Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
It is often said that the ad hominem fallacy is the most grudging, and for the opponent the most satisfying, admission of defeat.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostYou can redefine "moral obligation" such that it doesn't exist unless there is a God. But you won't win any converts that way.
You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Which is to say that if atheism is true, then one has no such obligation.
I answered the question and that needed no further interpretation.
A Deist, atheist, non theist, theist has the same drive to self, family, community or country integrity as the others in that list.
Unless you can answer for yourself?
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm not redefining anything. Moral obligation, by definition, requires a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, then, by definition, there can be no moral obligation. Q.E.D.
You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?
moral obligation requires a moral giver, however you might wish to define 'moral'.
Legal obligation requires a law giver.
A person who obeys laws is lawful.
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Originally posted by eider View PostA Deist, atheist, non theist, theist has the same drive to self, family, community or country integrity as the others in that list.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Whatever you're referring to as a "drive" is nothing more than a whim or personal preference instilled in us by our culture and not an obligation. If you choose to do otherwise, have you really committed a wrong?
The urge or drove to risk oneself in various incidents in attempts to benefit others, this drive exists on a high % of folks regardless of their beliefs.
Equally our prisons are full of convicts who were selfish on various ways, folks of varying beliefs etc.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm not redefining anything. Moral obligation, by definition, requires a moral law giver. If there is no moral law giver, then, by definition, there can be no moral obligation. Q.E.D.
You say that you are obligated to yourself to act morally. Why? What if you don't? Have you really done anything wrong?
Similarly, when I run into someone who thinks that morality couldn't exist without a God, my response is that I think morality exists, but it's not what they think it is.
So yes, when you and I talk about morality, we're actually talking about two different things.
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