I find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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The Human Animal...
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The Human Animal...
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s -
This is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThis is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThis is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Atheists would similarly run, face-first, into the problem of trying to explain what moral obligation we have to simply follow natural instincts.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Right. The problem is that atheists can't account for moral obligation at all.
Even if they wanted to assert that objective morality is a brute fact of nature, like the laws of physics, that in and of itself doesn't provide any reason to assume moral obligation.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Self-control, like that required for delayed gratification, is found in non-human animals.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Diogenes View PostTheism also doesn't lend itself to a specific moral position...Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seer View Post
I never bought that claim. How would that actually work? When we practice delayed gratification it is usually based on rationality and language. We think ahead, weigh consequences, it take a pretty sophisticated language set to do that. I'm not sure if we can train monkeys to delay gratification for instance, but that would just be manipulating instincts. Not a real understanding or cause and effect.
Also, operant conditioning requires the ability to associate an effect with a cause and then to expect an effect if the cause is present. For example:
If bell, then food.
Bell.
Therefore food.
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Delay gratification requires to the ability to analyse a situation, create a order of preferences, and act on that ordering. Non-human animals, like cuttlefish, can pass what's typified with the marshmallow test.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Do any of these do it in the wild without human manipulation?
The only "human manipulation" is the test itself, not the creature's cognitive capacity.
Even tests on humans are done in a laboratory setting an not "in the wild" without manipulation.
And how does a cuttlefish create an order of preferences?
What does that even mean?
The marshmallow test ins't a complicated procedure.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
The cuttlefish has to be able to identity to different food source. Be able to like one more than the other. Understand that if it waits, it will get the one it likes better. And then wait.
The marshmallow test ins't a complicated procedure.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View Post
See I don't get what it means to say that a cuttlefish "understands." Is it a rational conclusion? Or is it merely some form of instinctive reaction?P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Would you prefer the term "neurologically process"? The point of using cognitive tests on non-humans is to distinguish mere instinctual action against actions that require certain capacities and processes. In the cuttlefish test, it was shown that the cuttlefish has the ability to distinguish food preference when presented two options, the ability to distinguish temporal ordering, associate temporal ordering with food preference, and the ability to wait for when a preferred food was available. To call that much processing in non-humans "instinct" but in humans "understanding", smacks of special pleading.Last edited by seer; 03-26-2021, 12:20 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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