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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Right, on what moral basis do we not always want to give in to our base instincts? :
    Hi. I don't want to interrupt your conversation with Stoic, but I have been closely following along and rereading these threads over and over in attempts to truly understand the questions being asked. If I may, I would like to point out that Stoic has said in no uncertain terms that :

    "I personally think the question can be answered without bringing morality into it..." -Stoic

    If he is not bringing morality into it, then he will never be able to satisfy your criteria. You two are coming from 2 completely different worldviews.

    Thank you.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Stoic View Post



      The mortality of an action is defined by whether you and others survive it.

      Stoic jokes!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Machinist View Post

        Hi. I don't want to interrupt your conversation with Stoic, but I have been closely following along and rereading these threads over and over in attempts to truly understand the questions being asked. If I may, I would like to point out that Stoic has said in no uncertain terms that :

        "I personally think the question can be answered without bringing morality into it..." -Stoic

        If he is not bringing morality into it, then he will never be able to satisfy your criteria. You two are coming from 2 completely different worldviews.

        Thank you.
        Yes, atheists are rather desperate to avoid the question of moral obligation because it's one they literally can not answer. Like I said, Stoic may not necessarily be in good company, but he at least has company.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          Yes, atheists are rather desperate to avoid the question of moral obligation because it's one they literally can not answer. Like I said, Stoic may not necessarily be in good company, but he at least has company.
          Hmmm. I haven't discerned any desperation. Are they smuggling the idea of morality in somehow? Am I missing something here?

          My understanding thus far is "want" versus "ought".

          As in "what we ought to do" (theist standpoint)

          versus

          "what we want to do". (atheist standpoint)

          I don't see Stoic avoiding anything per se, but rather saying simply that the idea of morality is not useful.

          Last edited by Machinist; 03-30-2021, 07:54 AM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            I don't see Stoic avoiding anything per se, but rather saying simply that the idea of morality is not useful.
            Of course. An atheist could not give any other answer. So as far as the atheist's worldview is concerned, we have no moral obligation not to simply follow our base instincts.
            Last edited by Mountain Man; 03-30-2021, 08:56 AM.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Right, on what moral basis do we not always want to give in to our base instincts? I don't blame you for wanting to run away from this question, because no atheist I've debated has ever come up with a good answer. So while I wouldn't say you're in good company, you at least have company.



              It's funny that even Star's comment is topical to the OP whereas you've done nothing but avoid Stoic's response to the OP.
              “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

              -Ghandi (Disputed)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post




                It's funny that even Star's comment is topical to the OP whereas you've done nothing but avoid Stoic's response to the OP.
                It seems you don't have an answer, either, so I guess you're just going to cheer on Stoic as he bravely runs away from the question.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  It seems you don't have an answer, either, so I guess you're just going to cheer on Stoic as he bravely runs away from the question.
                  I take it you're not going to stick to the OP. I'm shocked, and stunned.
                  “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                  -Ghandi (Disputed)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                    I take it you're not going to stick to the OP.
                    Right, when confronted with a question you are unable to answer, just cry, "You're off topic!" Works every time.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      Right, when confronted with a question you are unable to answer, just cry, "You're off topic!" Works every time.
                      I find it interesting that three different perspectives have been given in response to the OP and you've yet to address any of them without derailing the thread.

                      Should you want the last word, I'll leave it open for you to take. You've had ample opportunity to respond to my comments on self-control in non-humans, Stoic's evolutionary psychology approach, and Star's reference to Greek philosophy and it's impact on Christianity.

                      Avoiding the topic matter "works every time".
                      “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                      -Ghandi (Disputed)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Of course. An atheist could not give any other answer. So as far as the atheist's worldview is concerned, we have no moral obligation not to simply follow our base instincts.
                        I think Stoic would agree here.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          I think Stoic would agree here.
                          Not exactly. Atheists have moral obligations too, though like the rest of morality there's a lot more subjectivity than many theists would be happy with.

                          I've only been avoiding the topic because I don't want to derail the thread. I'll be happy to join in if someone wants to start a thread about it (or if Seer wants to include it in this thread).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            Not exactly. Atheists have moral obligations too, though like the rest of morality there's a lot more subjectivity than many theists would be happy with.

                            I've only been avoiding the topic because I don't want to derail the thread. I'll be happy to join in if someone wants to start a thread about it (or if Seer wants to include it in this thread).
                            You can derail the thread, it wasn't going that well anyway...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                              Not exactly. Atheists have moral obligations too, though like the rest of morality there's a lot more subjectivity than many theists would be happy with.

                              I've only been avoiding the topic because I don't want to derail the thread. I'll be happy to join in if someone wants to start a thread about it (or if Seer wants to include it in this thread).



                              What moral obligations do atheists have? And if this moral code, or morality is subjective, even in the slightest, then what is even the point? How is "subjective morality" not a contradiction in terms? What's the point in even saying the term "morality" if there is no absolute standard by which you judge that moral (or immoral) action?

                              I think I have a real world example of what I am trying to ask:

                              A block of steel is hard. If I say steel, I don't have to say hard...because steel is hard. Yes, some steels can be softer or harder than others, but to humans, for instance, it would hurt if you dropped it on your toe. Because it's hard. It would be redundant to say "this piece of hard steel". I mean I could, but why?

                              I am groping in the dark for the right question to ask here.

                              Thank you all for taking your time to share your thoughts and knowledge on this subject.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                WARNING: The following is a mental ramble. If there is something in this that anyone can make sense of and help me form a question related to the topic of this thread, then please do so. Otherwise skip over it.

                                What/when did the idea of "objective morality" even start in history? Something about something being chiseled in stone symbolizes a platonic ideal, an objective standard. I was musing a placard recently in the local courthouse on The Code of Hammurabi, and I got to thinking what made these people look toward that stone as some sort of divine otherness. I mean, it's got curses for those who tamper with the code, like the code itself is something Holy and Other. But then later on, paper began being used, papyrus and other paper like media and it gave rise to new thoughts about absoluteness it seems. I read a book about this once or attempted to, but I forgot the title and I wished I could remember what book that was. What is the history of the philosophy and notion of objectivity?

                                Comment

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