Originally posted by seer
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
The Human Animal...
Collapse
X
-
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
-
Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
I already provided a non-linguistic understanding of cause and effect that occurred with Pavlov's dogs. The dogs would start to salivate without food being present due to the conditioning. Once food (the effect) was no longer presented, the dogs dissociated a bell with food. The ability to distinguish cause and effect has nothing to do with language. Once waiting was associated with a preferred food, the cuttlefish would wait to get the desired food. That requires the ability to process what I already laid out. The Cartesian view that animals are mere automata is pretty much defunct. Animals have demonstrated tool-usage, self-identification with the mirror test, delayed gratification with the marshmallow test, and some birds even can process water displacement. As animal cognitive science progresses, animals are shown to be more cognitively complex than once considered. I understand the desire to keep humans a special creation apart from animals, but not all animals are just dumb brutes acting according to instinct. Humans are more complex and developed but increasingly not so singularly unique.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View Post
I'm not saying animals are not clever in their own way. I've own dogs for years. But how are they clever? That is my point, you can not demonstrate how understanding cause and effect is possible without language, without a rational foresight of consequences.
If Pavlov's dogs are acting on more than just instinct how are they making the connection?
Cognitively more complex creatures could simply be acting on more complex instinctive abilities.
I think we tend to read our experiences back into lower animals. Is my dog really ashamed when she poops on the rug? Or is that merely a instinctive reaction feigning shame?P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
I don't find it surprising that the forward-looking and backward-looking parts of us are often in conflict.
Comment
-
This reasoning...
Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Instincts and cravings are purely backward-looking. They are determined by what worked best in the past, perhaps thousands of years ago. But for a creature able to understand the consequences of its actions, it may be apparent that those instincts and cravings will lead to unwelcome consequences, such as when constantly satisfying one's cravings for certain foods leads to poor health and/or early death.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostIn a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
It's my view that Paul talks about this quite a bit in his letters when he draws on these Greek and Roman ethical ideas to speak of the conflict within humans, talking about the 'flesh' vs the 'spirit' as these two parts of the human psyche oppose one another. In that context of Greek ethics, Paul presents the teachings and example of Christ as helping and inspiring followers to follow their spiritual desires rather than their fleshy ones, and thus presents Christ as helping achieve Greco-Roman ethical goals.
These terms, I think, have led others to get some quite mistaken ideas about what Paul is saying in these passages, and make major mistakes in their understanding of what Paul thinks about human nature. e.g. some people think 'flesh' = human nature in its natural state, and 'spirit' = divine intervention, and thus come away with the mistaken view that Paul has an extreme negative view of human capability and believes utterly in the need for divine intervention within the individual's psyche. They don't realize that in the Greek philosophical tradition flesh+spirit = human nature in its natural two-part state, the chariot being pulled by two horses, and that the Greek tradition understood all humans to have the power and choice to tip the balance between the two in their lives just as in Plato's chariot analogy the chariot rider is the human soul who has the power to steer the two horses pulling the chariot in different directions.
It's in light of that background that I think we can see why the Greek Christians in the centuries that followed were so vehement on the subject of free will and its crucial importance and maintained such a 'high' view of man and were so bullish on the ability of humanity to do good - they understood Paul's writings correctly against the background of Greek ethical philosophy they were drawing from. Whereas the major opponent of these ideas was Augustine - a Latin-only speaker who couldn't read Greek and didn't understand the ethical tradition Paul was drawing from, and so misunderstood Paul's words in numerous ways, arriving at an extreme view of the depravity of humanity and their predestination by God, which Calvin would later develop further again with a lack of understanding of the background ideas Paul was drawing from.Last edited by Starlight; 03-26-2021, 09:14 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
People who see the world in conflicting binaries---might see "war" everywhere...but another pov is that of complimentary binaries such as ying/yang. In such a perspective...binaries function as "necessary synthesis"....
the pov from Islamic philosophy would be that human nature (fitra) in its natural state is one that is at peace (balance/harmony). Excess breaks the balance. Therefore there is no inherent conflict between body (animal) and soul (human). All creation, in its natural state, is one that is "muslim" --- one that is in balance and harmony in accord with "Gods will"/Nature.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
What the naturalistic fallacy actually is per the SEP.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Sorry, not even close.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Yep. I could have left a link, but I figured if people wanted to know what I was referring to then they could trouble themselves to look it up.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou define certain actions as "good" because they lead to presumably desirable outcomes.
My point was that instincts are hereditary behavior, meaning that they are determined by genetics, rather than environment. And those genes are still around because they were useful in enabling us to survive and/or procreate. Now, most of us wouldn't complain about being able to survive and procreate, but genes that developed in one environment (i.e. before human civilization) might not have the same effect in another environment (i.e. modern society). It would not be surprising if they led to consequences that we might not like.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Stoic View PostIt's amazing that you think that was in my post, in which I never defined anything as "good".
Originally posted by Stoic View PostMy point was that instincts are hereditary behavior, meaning that they are determined by genetics, rather than environment. And those genes are still around because they were useful in enabling us to survive and/or procreate. Now, most of us wouldn't complain about being able to survive and procreate, but genes that developed in one environment (i.e. before human civilization) might not have the same effect in another environment (i.e. modern society). It would not be surprising if they led to consequences that we might not like.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
Comment
-
Originally posted by seer View PostI find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
|
39 responses
165 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
Today, 03:32 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
|
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-21-2024, 12:15 PM | ||
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
|
80 responses
426 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 12:33 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
|
45 responses
303 views
1 like
|
Last Post 03-17-2024, 07:19 AM | ||
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
|
406 responses
2,507 views
2 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 05:49 PM
|
Comment