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The Human Animal...

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  • The Human Animal...

    I find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    This is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      This is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.
      It seems strange that this bifurcation should rise up in the first place. I can imagine our intellects being in perfect unity with our natural impulses and passions, not fighting against them. Like a more advanced Chimpanzee.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        I find it curious that human beings seem to be the only creatures that are at war with their natural inclinations. We are constantly trying to control our appetites and impulses. I suspect that the higher primates are perfectly at home with their instincts and cravings, unitary and uniform. Humans on the other hand seem to be bifurcated. Trying to dominate and control these very natural passions and stimuli... In a real sense - a state of war exists between the rational and the animal nature.
        Self-control, like that required for delayed gratification, is found in non-human animals.
        “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

        -Ghandi (Disputed)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          This is a problem that atheists repeatedly run face-first into, trying to explain what moral obligation we have to not simply follow our natural instincts.
          Atheists would similarly run, face-first, into the problem of trying to explain what moral obligation we have to simply follow natural instincts.
          “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

          -Ghandi (Disputed)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

            Atheists would similarly run, face-first, into the problem of trying to explain what moral obligation we have to simply follow natural instincts.
            Right. The problem is that atheists can't account for moral obligation at all. Even if they wanted to assert that objective morality is a brute fact of nature, like the laws of physics, that in and of itself doesn't provide any reason to assume moral obligation.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Right. The problem is that atheists can't account for moral obligation at all.
              The point was more that as a position, atheism doesn't lend itself to a specific moral position but most aren't moral realists. Theism also doesn't lend itself to a specific moral position, and, like with atheists, theists tend to be anti-realists.

              Even if they wanted to assert that objective morality is a brute fact of nature, like the laws of physics, that in and of itself doesn't provide any reason to assume moral obligation.
              Any moral realist would have the issue of how moral facts or moral properties entailed a moral obligation or had some form of normative force.
              “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

              -Ghandi (Disputed)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                Self-control, like that required for delayed gratification, is found in non-human animals.
                I never bought that claim. How would that actually work? When we practice delayed gratification it is usually based on rationality and language. We think ahead, weigh consequences, it take a pretty sophisticated language set to do that. I'm not sure if we can train monkeys to delay gratification for instance, but that would just be manipulating instincts. Not a real understanding or cause and effect.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                  Theism also doesn't lend itself to a specific moral position...
                  You'll have to explain that one, because the theist position, generally speaking, is that there is a moral lawgiver in the form of a deity to whom all men are obligated to act morally. Atheism, on the other hand, can not account for a moral lawgiver; therefore, it can not account for moral obligation.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    I never bought that claim. How would that actually work? When we practice delayed gratification it is usually based on rationality and language. We think ahead, weigh consequences, it take a pretty sophisticated language set to do that. I'm not sure if we can train monkeys to delay gratification for instance, but that would just be manipulating instincts. Not a real understanding or cause and effect.
                    Delay gratification requires to the ability to analyse a situation, create a order of preferences, and act on that ordering. Non-human animals, like cuttlefish, can pass what's typified with the marshmallow test.

                    Also, operant conditioning requires the ability to associate an effect with a cause and then to expect an effect if the cause is present. For example:

                    If bell, then food.
                    Bell.
                    Therefore food.
                    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                    -Ghandi (Disputed)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                      Delay gratification requires to the ability to analyse a situation, create a order of preferences, and act on that ordering. Non-human animals, like cuttlefish, can pass what's typified with the marshmallow test.
                      Do any of these do it in the wild without human manipulation? And how does a cuttlefish create an order of preferences? What does that even mean?



                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Do any of these do it in the wild without human manipulation?

                        The only "human manipulation" is the test itself, not the creature's cognitive capacity.

                        Even tests on humans are done in a laboratory setting an not "in the wild" without manipulation.



                        And how does a cuttlefish create an order of preferences?
                        Do you mean the exact neurological process itself? No idea.



                        What does that even mean?
                        The cuttlefish has to be able to identity to different food source. Be able to like one more than the other. Understand that if it waits, it will get the one it likes better. And then wait.

                        The marshmallow test ins't a complicated procedure.
                        “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                        -Ghandi (Disputed)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post


                          The cuttlefish has to be able to identity to different food source. Be able to like one more than the other. Understand that if it waits, it will get the one it likes better. And then wait.

                          The marshmallow test ins't a complicated procedure.
                          See I don't get what it means to say that a cuttlefish "understands." Is it a rational conclusion? Or is it merely some form of instinctive reaction?

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post

                            See I don't get what it means to say that a cuttlefish "understands." Is it a rational conclusion? Or is it merely some form of instinctive reaction?
                            Would you prefer the term "neurologically process"? The point of using cognitive tests on non-humans is to distinguish mere instinctual action against actions that require certain capacities and processes. In the cuttlefish test, it was shown that the cuttlefish has the ability to distinguish food preference when presented two options, the ability to distinguish temporal ordering, associate temporal ordering with food preference, and the ability to wait for when a preferred food was available. To call that much processing in non-humans "instinct" but in humans "understanding", smacks of special pleading.
                            “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                            -Ghandi (Disputed)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                              Would you prefer the term "neurologically process"? The point of using cognitive tests on non-humans is to distinguish mere instinctual action against actions that require certain capacities and processes. In the cuttlefish test, it was shown that the cuttlefish has the ability to distinguish food preference when presented two options, the ability to distinguish temporal ordering, associate temporal ordering with food preference, and the ability to wait for when a preferred food was available. To call that much processing in non-humans "instinct" but in humans "understanding", smacks of special pleading.
                              Special pleading? We know humans can and do understand cause and effect and that is the result of understanding consequences and that is based on language. We think it through, and language is necessary for that. This doesn't seem any different than teaching my dog to sit and stay as I walk away. She does, knowing she will get a treat at the end of the process.
                              Last edited by seer; 03-26-2021, 12:20 PM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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