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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    I don't know CP, I know some very devout Catholics.
    I know some very devout Muslims.

    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      It's troubling that you'd choose a church based on how "cool" their building was. The early Christians would gather in places like people's homes and catacombs.
      I have those options. These are merely bells and whistles. The Blood Christ is what is central.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Machinist View Post
        Can someone be a Christian and simultaneously accept the plausibility of atheism?
        Not if one actually knows God by reason of being born of God to be a Christian.

        Scripture Verse: 1 Jhn 4:7-8

        . . . Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. . . .

        © Copyright Original Source


        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          I know some very devout Muslims.
          Except devout Catholics are devoted to the God of the Bible and Christ.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Except devout Catholics are devoted to the God of the Bible and Christ.
            I have a problem with that, because the "devout Catholics" I know tend to be devoted to the religion, without a real understand of the saving Grace of Christ. My Catholic friends talk about "the blessed hope of Salvation" like it's only something the Church can give them.

            And they tend to think they are "the Real Church", and, unless you convert to Catholicism, you're not really a Christian.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
              Can someone be a Christian and simultaneously accept the plausibility of atheism? I have an affinity for atheism, but also an affinity for the Death Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.
              I'm sort of late in this discussion but thought this verse is of some relevance
              Scripture Verse: Hebrews 11:6


              But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

              © Copyright Original Source


              This is written to people already following Christ. It is not the message to people who have not yet followed Christ. So someone, as a non-Christian, can be uncertain what to make of God who raised Christ from the dead.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                I have a problem with that, because the "devout Catholics" I know tend to be devoted to the religion, without a real understand of the saving Grace of Christ. My Catholic friends talk about "the blessed hope of Salvation" like it's only something the Church can give them.

                And they tend to think they are "the Real Church", and, unless you convert to Catholicism, you're not really a Christian.
                That was before Vatican Two.

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                  I'm sort of late in this discussion but thought this verse is of some relevance
                  Scripture Verse: Hebrews 11:6


                  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  This is written to people already following Christ. It is not the message to people who have not yet followed Christ. So someone, as a non-Christian, can be uncertain what to make of God who raised Christ from the dead.
                  Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I have faith in Jesus as God Incarnate. At the same time, I can appreciate and conceive of a self existent universe with self existent symmetry and a self existent supra all pervasive consciousness, that includes all matter, all space, and all time.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                    Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I have faith in Jesus as God Incarnate. At the same time, I can appreciate and conceive of a self existent universe with self existent symmetry and a self existent supra all pervasive consciousness, that includes all matter, all space, and all time.
                    hmmm. I don't think that was what the writer of Hebrews was saying -- i.e. that pervasive consciousness stuff. God reigns above all that. Anyhow, I just wanted to inject that clarification found in Hebrews.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      I have a problem with that, because the "devout Catholics" I know tend to be devoted to the religion, without a real understand of the saving Grace of Christ. My Catholic friends talk about "the blessed hope of Salvation" like it's only something the Church can give them.

                      And they tend to think they are "the Real Church", and, unless you convert to Catholicism, you're not really a Christian.
                      That STM objectionable only if one is not Catholic. In essence, St Peter is also being “narrow” (or whatever other word may be suitable) when he says that “Salvation is found in no one else [but Jesus], for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved”. The logic of the two objections is identical - that millions of people, and their convictions, are being dissed, because they do not belong to the group to which, it is being said, one needs to belong to if one is to be saved. The CC claim may, of course, be wrong - but so may St Peter’s. And so may be the objections to the claim of St Peter, and of the CC.

                      The claim that the CC, or the EOC, or some version of Calvinism, or the Church of England, or maybe some other, is uniquely the One True Church of Christ. STM to be a perfectly fair claim. The question - if one professes that type of ecclesiology - is, “Which body on Earth is the OTC ?”. If one professes an ecclesiology in which all professing Christians of all Churches are in some sense the Church, one still has to explain why the Church matters so much that it cannot merge with some other, or with all, religions. Why is it “bigoted” (a word sometimes used) to be Catholic or Orthodox, while disallowing the ecclesiological claims of Nazarenes, Baptists, Methodists, etc. - but not “bigoted” to be Christian, while disallowing the religious claims of Hindus, Muslims, or of professors of Egyptian paganism ?

                      Positively stated, the exclusiveness of the Church is a consequence of her catholicity - her universality. A Church that is intended for any and every member of the human race, is a Church that leaves no room for any other. And the Church is intended to be universal - which is why no-one is forbidden to join it. And the Church is universal, because the Kingdom of Christ is universal, because “every knee shall bow at the Name of Jesus, to the glory of God the Father”. But Jesus is the Universal Davidic King of Psalm 72, to Whom “all nations, and peoples, and tribes, and tongues” are subject, whether by their willing homage, or despite their defiance. The Church on Earth is the seed of this Universal and Unending Kingdom, so it too is Universal and Unending; it, and that of which it is the seed, are identical in their essential qualities. It is therefore the One Church which Christ has founded, the One People with whom He made His everlasting covenant, His One Bride, and His One Body. Unless this One Universal Church of Christ no longer exists, it must exist still - so where is it ?

                      The Uniqueness and Universality and Perpetuity and Indefectability of the Church of Christ (whichever body that Church may be) STM to be required by Christian faith in Christ, and to be real, and necessarily so, because of what is said about Him.

                      It goes without saying - or it should - that the One True Church owes absolutely all of good that she is, has, & participates in, to the grace of Christ the One Unique Universal All-Sufficient Mediator. Take away the grace by which she is endlessly sustained, and the Church ceases to exist. I believe the CC is the OTC, therefore I believe that she is and has and could have nothing, apart from the grace of Christ, Who in Catholic theology is the Source of all grace in the Church and the world. All good in creation, bar none, is the gift of Christ through Whom it comes.

                      Neither the CC, nor the Bible, is Christ Himself. No-one believes or teaches that the CC was crucified for us, and no-one believes or teaches that the Bible was raised again for our justification. There are some offices, that only Christ can fulfil. Neither the Church nor the Bible can perform them. To say this, is not to despise either Church or Bible, but to recognise that God has seen fit to provide both of them, limited in certain respects as they are, to be means of promoting the well-being of His People. Both can be misused, and even idolised; but that comes from human sinfulness and weakness, not from God. So Catholics go to the Church, as to an important means of God’s grace - and Evangelicals go to the Bible, as to an important means of God’s grace. But in doing so, neither group is displacing or ignoring Christ - they are using for their good what He has provided for their good. To blame Catholics for going to the Church, is like blaming Evangelicals for going to the Bible, and not to some other writings. Other writings may well be admirable in many ways, but only the Bible comes to the Church as “God’s Word in the words of men”. If the Maori had been chosen by God as His covenant people, they, and not the Jews, would be the people from whom Christ came. But God chose Israel - not the Maori, Eskimos, Sumerians, Japanese, or any other people on Earth. God created Israel, and only Israel, to be the nation from which the Messiah, the Universal King, would come. God Who chose Israel to be His because He wanted to, did not have to inspire the writings of Israelites - but that is what He did. So those writings, from that culture, by those human authors, have an authority for our salvation that no other writings possess, except fitfully. “The Pilgrim’s Progress” and Ancient Egyptian wisdom literature can both contain good and helpful things, which the readers can be better for knowing - but neither of them is inspired with the same wealth of saving knowledge and Divine authority as the Bible. Other books may well contain some drops of Divine inspiration - but the Bible alone provides the full draught. The Church is better off - not, better than - other religious communities; by God’s favour alone, just as the Bible is more excellent than other books, and just as Israel was more favoured than other nations; or the Blessed Virgin Mary, than uother women. All four cases form a pattern, and in all four cases the initiative is God’s in every way. As with all other creatures, any value that the CC has, or the Bible, or Israel, or the BVM, is from God alone.


                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                        Can someone be a Christian and simultaneously accept the plausibility of atheism? I have an affinity for atheism, but also an affinity for the Death Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.
                        I think there is a lot to be said for atheism. I find the moral passion of many atheists impressive. They often attack genuine evils, that should be attacked.

                        When you speak of an affinity for those two things that you mention, what do you mean ?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                          That STM objectionable only if one is not Catholic. In essence, St Peter is also being “narrow” (or whatever other word may be suitable) when he says that “Salvation is found in no one else [but Jesus], for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved”. The logic of the two objections is identical - that millions of people, and their convictions, are being dissed, because they do not belong to the group to which, it is being said, one needs to belong to if one is to be saved. The CC claim may, of course, be wrong - but so may St Peter’s. And so may be the objections to the claim of St Peter, and of the CC.

                          The claim that the CC, or the EOC, or some version of Calvinism, or the Church of England, or maybe some other, is uniquely the One True Church of Christ. STM to be a perfectly fair claim. The question - if one professes that type of ecclesiology - is, “Which body on Earth is the OTC ?”. If one professes an ecclesiology in which all professing Christians of all Churches are in some sense the Church, one still has to explain why the Church matters so much that it cannot merge with some other, or with all, religions. Why is it “bigoted” (a word sometimes used) to be Catholic or Orthodox, while disallowing the ecclesiological claims of Nazarenes, Baptists, Methodists, etc. - but not “bigoted” to be Christian, while disallowing the religious claims of Hindus, Muslims, or of professors of Egyptian paganism ?

                          Positively stated, the exclusiveness of the Church is a consequence of her catholicity - her universality. A Church that is intended for any and every member of the human race, is a Church that leaves no room for any other. And the Church is intended to be universal - which is why no-one is forbidden to join it. And the Church is universal, because the Kingdom of Christ is universal, because “every knee shall bow at the Name of Jesus, to the glory of God the Father”. But Jesus is the Universal Davidic King of Psalm 72, to Whom “all nations, and peoples, and tribes, and tongues” are subject, whether by their willing homage, or despite their defiance. The Church on Earth is the seed of this Universal and Unending Kingdom, so it too is Universal and Unending; it, and that of which it is the seed, are identical in their essential qualities. It is therefore the One Church which Christ has founded, the One People with whom He made His everlasting covenant, His One Bride, and His One Body. Unless this One Universal Church of Christ no longer exists, it must exist still - so where is it ?

                          The Uniqueness and Universality and Perpetuity and Indefectability of the Church of Christ (whichever body that Church may be) STM to be required by Christian faith in Christ, and to be real, and necessarily so, because of what is said about Him.

                          It goes without saying - or it should - that the One True Church owes absolutely all of good that she is, has, & participates in, to the grace of Christ the One Unique Universal All-Sufficient Mediator. Take away the grace by which she is endlessly sustained, and the Church ceases to exist. I believe the CC is the OTC, therefore I believe that she is and has and could have nothing, apart from the grace of Christ, Who in Catholic theology is the Source of all grace in the Church and the world. All good in creation, bar none, is the gift of Christ through Whom it comes.

                          Neither the CC, nor the Bible, is Christ Himself. No-one believes or teaches that the CC was crucified for us, and no-one believes or teaches that the Bible was raised again for our justification. There are some offices, that only Christ can fulfil. Neither the Church nor the Bible can perform them. To say this, is not to despise either Church or Bible, but to recognise that God has seen fit to provide both of them, limited in certain respects as they are, to be means of promoting the well-being of His People. Both can be misused, and even idolised; but that comes from human sinfulness and weakness, not from God. So Catholics go to the Church, as to an important means of God’s grace - and Evangelicals go to the Bible, as to an important means of God’s grace. But in doing so, neither group is displacing or ignoring Christ - they are using for their good what He has provided for their good. To blame Catholics for going to the Church, is like blaming Evangelicals for going to the Bible, and not to some other writings. Other writings may well be admirable in many ways, but only the Bible comes to the Church as “God’s Word in the words of men”. If the Maori had been chosen by God as His covenant people, they, and not the Jews, would be the people from whom Christ came. But God chose Israel - not the Maori, Eskimos, Sumerians, Japanese, or any other people on Earth. God created Israel, and only Israel, to be the nation from which the Messiah, the Universal King, would come. God Who chose Israel to be His because He wanted to, did not have to inspire the writings of Israelites - but that is what He did. So those writings, from that culture, by those human authors, have an authority for our salvation that no other writings possess, except fitfully. “The Pilgrim’s Progress” and Ancient Egyptian wisdom literature can both contain good and helpful things, which the readers can be better for knowing - but neither of them is inspired with the same wealth of saving knowledge and Divine authority as the Bible. Other books may well contain some drops of Divine inspiration - but the Bible alone provides the full draught. The Church is better off - not, better than - other religious communities; by God’s favour alone, just as the Bible is more excellent than other books, and just as Israel was more favoured than other nations; or the Blessed Virgin Mary, than uother women. All four cases form a pattern, and in all four cases the initiative is God’s in every way. As with all other creatures, any value that the CC has, or the Bible, or Israel, or the BVM, is from God alone.
                          I don't think that any one denomination is "The One True Church". I certainly don't claim that as a Baptist, so I'm skeptical of any 'body' that does -- unless you've been baptized into the Church of Christ, you can't really be a Christian - or unless you're a member of the Catholic Church - or the Mormon Church....

                          I don't believe Salvation comes through a denomination or "organized religion", but by Grace through Faith, in Christ alone.

                          ETA: But WAIT, there's MORE!!! While I was posting this, a commercial came on TV. A black and white text-only --- Heaven or Not? Are you going to Heaven, or Not? You can know for sure! then they give the website "heaven or not".

                          Last edited by Cow Poke; 03-15-2021, 07:34 AM.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post


                            When you speak of an affinity for those two things that you mention, what do you mean ?
                            I don't know. Maybe an affinity for the possibility in an absolute in which to rest. Something firm and solid and irrefutable and does not look ambiguous. I have an affinity for the Story of Christ, and I have an affinity for a self existent Universe that is so infinitely complex that from time to time, from aeon to aeon it arranges in such a way, that consciousness emerges, and that this consciousness contains all Myth, and maybe not necessarily the exact stories, but maybe just the primal archetypal patterns. It's a beautiful arrangement. It's horrifying, but at the same time beautiful.

                            I don't know. I'm just feeling my way through this. It's not necessarily a bad place either. I do pray and ask God to guide me in the journey.



                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                              I have those options. These are merely bells and whistles. The Blood Christ is what is central.
                              While it's true that Jesus' death and resurrection is central to the Christian faith, I feel the need to point out that the "bells and whistles" you speak of are not even on the periphery. They are things that literally do not matter in the slightest. What you need is a church, or even just a mentor, who will give you a good, solid grounding in the Bible.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                While it's true that Jesus' death and resurrection is central to the Christian faith, I feel the need to point out that the "bells and whistles" you speak of are not even on the periphery. They are things that literally do not matter in the slightest. What you need is a church, or even just a mentor, who will give you a good, solid grounding in the Bible.
                                Thank you. You know, there was one time, I set aside all questions and doubt and did just that. It was a peaceful time I recall.

                                Comment

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