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The Poor Laws of Moses

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    I've thought the same. I would go further and give the death sentence to some of the extreme cases. Bernie Madoff comes to mind as one.

    This is probably a good area to have the sentencing guidelines reviewed and updated.
    I must look up 'Bernie Madoff'....
    In the UK remember Robert Maxwell, who was not only a Newspaper Owner but a very respected television personality, presenter and current affairs commentator. When his newspaper empire began to falter he secretly scavenged the funds in the Newspaper's pension fund which provided for thousands of pensioners and future pensioners....... they all lost their private pension plans completely.

    You mention that most serious cases should carry 'capital sentences' which does seem tough, but in Maxwell's situation he clearly would have agreed with you. He ordered the crew of his private yacht to take him far out to sea and after a fine dinner and cigar he ejected himself over the vessel's stern, never to be seen or found again.



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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      Back in the day, our Police Department had a "Bunko Squad", and I was team leader. It was to root out and arrest the local scam artists.
      My colleague and I worked in retail investigation and store detection as ops and National trainers.
      I specialised in catching middle-class shop thieves because nobody ever watched respectable-looking folks.
      My friend became highly particularly sensitive to retail scammers, and deception artists. Quite uncanny.
      We often left store staff totally shocked after detaining customers that were local celebrities.
      On one occasion we only worked on the shop floor for a total of about twenty minutes. The rest of the day we spent in the staff room writing police statements for the eight arrests which we shared ........ a record never broken.

      Staff (and most SDs) only ever watched people who looked bad, but we specialised in those who stole due to intellectual challenge, anger, excitement, distraction, insecurity, pure greed, and the very long list of professiional people who fell to our techniques including a Royal Marines Colonel, senior police officers, tax officials, nurses, accountants, store managers from other stores, and more.

      It was like fly fishing........

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      • #33
        Originally posted by eider View Post

        My colleague and I worked in retail investigation and store detection as ops and National trainers.
        I specialised in catching middle-class shop thieves because nobody ever watched respectable-looking folks.
        My friend became highly particularly sensitive to retail scammers, and deception artists. Quite uncanny.
        We often left store staff totally shocked after detaining customers that were local celebrities.
        On one occasion we only worked on the shop floor for a total of about twenty minutes. The rest of the day we spent in the staff room writing police statements for the eight arrests which we shared ........ a record never broken.

        Staff (and most SDs) only ever watched people who looked bad, but we specialised in those who stole due to intellectual challenge, anger, excitement, distraction, insecurity, pure greed, and the very long list of professiional people who fell to our techniques including a Royal Marines Colonel, senior police officers, tax officials, nurses, accountants, store managers from other stores, and more.

        It was like fly fishing........
        Was it your experience that every shoplifter had the money on their person to purchase the goods they stole?
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          Was it your experience that every shoplifter had the money on their person to purchase the goods they stole?
          Not always.....
          Some Need motivated thefts like a sandwich and drink sometimes did not have funds.

          And Poverty-Need thefts :-
          One National Supermarket in the early 90's used to question thieves and fill in a form from their answers. Where the result showed a manager that the theft was caused by poverty-need, like an elderly lady stealing basic foodstuffs, then the thief would not even be banned from the store nor police called, but a condition be sought whereby that person would report to the services desk on future visits so that a member of staff could go round with them and help them with their selections/purchases. This ended circa 1996 .......

          But otherwise... yes.
          Some thieves were very wealthy people and simply stole or deceived because they could, they massaged their intellectual cleverness with thefts. We ate them for breakfast, lunch and tea!

          It was a sad job, theft catching, but I trained many hundreds of retail investigators, test purchase ops, store detectives and retail SOs from the early 90's until 2010.

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          • #35
            Can the people who steal unnecessarily (if they were desperate, they should have asked and received help) be shamed by having a sign on their social media that they are a dirty rotten theif?
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              Can the people who steal unnecessarily (if they were desperate, they should have asked and received help) be shamed by having a sign on their social media that they are a dirty rotten theif?
              At this time I don't think that is allowed.
              I don't think you could attract any media organisation to that idea.
              But I don't know.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by eider View Post

                Not always.....
                Some Need motivated thefts like a sandwich and drink sometimes did not have funds.

                And Poverty-Need thefts :-
                One National Supermarket in the early 90's used to question thieves and fill in a form from their answers. Where the result showed a manager that the theft was caused by poverty-need, like an elderly lady stealing basic foodstuffs, then the thief would not even be banned from the store nor police called, but a condition be sought whereby that person would report to the services desk on future visits so that a member of staff could go round with them and help them with their selections/purchases. This ended circa 1996 .......

                But otherwise... yes.
                Some thieves were very wealthy people and simply stole or deceived because they could, they massaged their intellectual cleverness with thefts. We ate them for breakfast, lunch and tea!

                It was a sad job, theft catching, but I trained many hundreds of retail investigators, test purchase ops, store detectives and retail SOs from the early 90's until 2010.
                Interesting. Thanks. I was actually in the "loss prevention business" many years ago, and our experience was that very few people actually shoplifted out of need - it was more like "the thrill" or something.

                I remember once a lady was arrested for stealing a pack of balogna and a pack of cheese, and when I went to the back room where the store manager was keeping her, it honestly looked like this was a case of need.

                I sized up the cost of the two packages, handed the manager a $20 bill, and asked, "that takes care of it, yes?"
                He resisted at first, but I gave him "the eyes", and asked again "$20 covers the expense, yes?"

                He said, "$20 won't be necessary, she's free to leave".
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                • #38
                  Proverbs 30:
                  7 “Two things I ask of you, Lord;
                  do not refuse me before I die:
                  8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
                  give me neither poverty nor riches,
                  but give me only my daily bread.
                  9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
                  and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’
                  Or I may become poor and steal,
                  and so dishonor the name of my God.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I remember reading Proverbs 30 and how much it meant to me then and still does now. Thanks for the reminder.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                    • #40
                      Friday's selection.........
                      Widows, Orphans and Strangers !

                      While they kept to the laws layed down for them by their God, the Israelites were bound to grow in size, strength, power, security and success. As long as they kept to them..... all.

                      Success and survival was not only dependent upon favouring the strongest, but by favouring all. These Laws were not suggestions, nor intended to be charities. They were Commands.

                      Where I live we still have provision for widows, orphans and strangers, but maybe not enough.
                      I only 'printed' a couple of examples from Deuteronomy, but have offered links from all the verses from that one book only, thus saving from replication.

                      Deuteronomy:-
                      10:18
                      14:29
                      16:11
                      16:14
                      24:17
                      24:19
                      24:20
                      24:21
                      26:12
                      26:13
                      27:19

                      Deut:{10:18} He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. {10:19} Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

                      Deut {24:17} Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, [nor] of the fatherless; nor take a widow’s raiment to pledge: {24:18} But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

                      Deut {24:19} When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

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                      • #41
                        Saturday's offering, and this my last from the Laws of Moses........

                        Deut {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the
                        LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.

                        That's it...... all that know of.
                        From the examples that I know about it seems clear to me that the Israelites were commanded to care for all, and all the time that they did their nation remained strong.

                        It also remained strong because unlike the neighbouring peoples they didn't get so sick. That might be a good subject for another thread, something like 'Sin leads to Sickness and Death'. Yes...... a must-do!

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