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Racism, Perfectly Normal?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    So how would a person with downs be of equal value with a neurosurgeon?
    Both are equally persons, so any value tied to persons would apply equally. The neurosurgeon may have more social utility, but that's a matter of utility, not being more of a person or a superior person.


    Because they both are made of the same meat?
    My position on humans would probably fall under property dualism as I accept the existence of things like mental states, qualia, etc. Being a person isn't a matter of social class, social utility (though as we've seen it's the "lower people" that make civilised life possible), skin colour, eye colour (as Jane Elliot experimented) ancestry, being a ginger or not, etc.



    How does mere physicality confer value?
    I open to the idea that human development as a social and emotive organism is the likely origination of as sense of valuation of other humans. From a strict sense of property and ontology, valuation would inherently be subjective.



    How does that track with most of human history?
    Western countries are the most successful countries and things like self-ownership, freedom, and liberty are hallmarks are Western countries.



    You are suggesting that totalitarian regimes like China are irrational.

    In these sense of virtue ethics, I'd have no issue with that.



    Isn't that a value judgement?
    No more than a suggesting a move in chess is a not a value judgement.
    P1) If , then I win.

    P2)

    C) I win.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

      Both are equally persons, so any value tied to persons would apply equally. The neurosurgeon may have more social utility, but that's a matter of utility, not being more of a person or a superior person.
      I followed, somewhat, when you said that racism would be irrational, but in my OP I was asking a moral question. Saying: I can logically conclude that racism is evil. But when you start speaking of value that is a moral claim and is personal or cultural. So if one group devalues another group, say to exploit them, I don't see how the fact of exploited being human makes that immoral. Whether they base that on race or some other quality.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        But on what basis does the atheist condemn racism? Isn't racism merely tribalism and tribalism a natural outcome of the evolutionary process? In other words - biologically normal?
        Can religion be tribal?
        On many occasions I have seen/heard some Christians point at other Churches and claim 'They are not Christians!'. The last occasion was at a Thursday noon ''soup 'n' chat'' meeting at a Christian Hall where I live in 2019.

        Any kind of bigotry directed at any other person counts (for me) as being = to racism.
        Religion. Colour. Nationality. Disability/ability. Age. IQ. Sex. Sexuality. Marital Status.

        Now... how many religions can claim to be free of all the above prejudices?
        Non-Theists and Atheists know that they need to build communities that can accommodate ALL kinds of people, and if your Creed or Church can do the same then I for one would seriously want to know about it for it would be very special indeed.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by eider View Post

          Can religion be tribal?
          On many occasions I have seen/heard some Christians point at other Churches and claim 'They are not Christians!'. The last occasion was at a Thursday noon ''soup 'n' chat'' meeting at a Christian Hall where I live in 2019.

          Any kind of bigotry directed at any other person counts (for me) as being = to racism.
          Religion. Colour. Nationality. Disability/ability. Age. IQ. Sex. Sexuality. Marital Status.
          Of course anything can be tribal;, religion, politics, race, nationality, etc... And it is not necessarily immoral or wrong.

          Now... how many religions can claim to be free of all the above prejudices?
          Are you free of all prejudices? It is the human condition.

          Non-Theists and Atheists know that they need to build communities that can accommodate ALL kinds of people, and if your Creed or Church can do the same then I for one would seriously want to know about it for it would be very special indeed.
          America is a melting pot, we have just about every nationality in the world living here.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post

            Of course anything can be tribal;, religion, politics, race, nationality, etc... And it is not necessarily immoral or wrong.
            Can you think of an example of healthy tribal bigotry?

            Are you free of all prejudices? It is the human condition.
            I'm trying to think of a 'kind' of people that I would not want to move next door to us, but I can't.
            And you?

            ​​​​
            America is a melting pot, we have just about every nationality in the world living here.
            I don't think so...... surely most people living in the US have the same nationality as you?
            Apart from green card holders, that is.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by eider View Post
              Can you think of an example of healthy tribal bigotry?
              Not bigotry, but I think nationalism can be healthy. And necessary.


              I'm trying to think of a 'kind' of people that I would not want to move next door to us, but I can't.
              And you?
              Sure, a Jihadist. Or a committed Communist.


              I don't think so...... surely most people living in the US have the same nationality as you?
              Apart from green card holders, that is.
              Nonsense, my neighborhood is largely Latino, with Blacks coming in second. Whites are the minority. It depends on where you live - though I'm mixed race. Italian and Spanish, with some French and Iranian thrown in. And yes whites are still the majority in the US, about 60%. But so what? Do you know another country with a greater diversity of races?
              Last edited by seer; 03-09-2021, 03:05 PM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post

                Not bigotry, but I think nationalism can be healthy. And necessary.
                National identity and pride is hardly tribalism.

                Sure, a Jihadist. Or a committed Communist.
                A jihadist? Wishing to avoid killers is hardly a bigotry, it's survival.
                And communists are ok, some live around here and they're ok.

                Nonsense, my neighborhood is largely Latino, with Blacks coming in second. Whites are the minority. It depends on where you live - though I'm mixed race. Italian and Spanish, with some French and Iranian thrown in. And yes whites are still the majority in the US, about 60%. But so what? Do you know another country with a greater diversity of races?
                You said nationalism!
                All those are Americans surely? Apart from green card holders .

                You spoke of nationalism, not race.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by eider View Post
                  National identity and pride is hardly tribalism.
                  Of course it can.

                  Tribalism

                  A strong sense of identifying with and being loyal to one's tribe, group, etc.

                  A jihadist? Wishing to avoid killers is hardly a bigotry, it's survival.
                  And communists are ok, some live around here and they're ok.
                  No they are not, they are anti American.


                  You said nationalism!
                  All those are Americans surely? Apart from green card holders .

                  You spoke of nationalism, not race.
                  When I said nationality I meant those who came from other nations, or had a heritage from other areas. That is what I meant by melting pot.

                  Melting-pot meaning

                  The definition of a melting pot is a place where different people or different cultures all come together and begin to merge and mix.






                  Last edited by seer; 03-09-2021, 05:04 PM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post

                    Of course it can.

                    Tribalism

                    A strong sense of identifying with and being loyal to one's tribe, group, etc.
                    OK, so some person's taken the word 'tribalism' and welded it to 'Loyalty'.... but most folks today see 'tribalism' as mindless following of, say, a football team (UK) or extreme political group.

                    No they are not, they are anti American.
                    There we are....... so you do have some prejudices against communists. In your OP you asked ...':- ......on what basis does the atheist condemn racism?'. but now it surfaces that you've got a few (different) prejudices of your own. OK?
                    Just because I voted for Boris last time, this doesn't make me a tribal conservative, nor a communist hater. These are just political opinions.

                    The jihadist is a murderer...... he can clear off and live somewhere else, though.

                    When I said nationality I meant those who came from other nations, or had a heritage from other areas. That is what I meant by melting pot.

                    Melting-pot meaning

                    The definition of a melting pot is a place where different people or different cultures all come together and begin to merge and mix.
                    Look......... Nationality means which country you are a citizen of, or belong to. That's totally different to culture, race, heritage or anything else.
                    Nearly all folks living in your country are Americans! They can hold US passports!



                    Alright, I'm a Deist, a kind of non-Theist, but trust me when I tell you that atheists won't let me in to their club, (I don't care..... they don't do a happy hour and their beer is flat.).

                    But you've asked ':- ......on what basis does the atheist condemn racism?......... and now I find that you have a list of prejudices all your own. Many Theists, Non-Theists and Atheists are all mostly reasonable folks who believe in a community which other people can live in without fear, harassment, victimization or exclusion, simply because they have a sense of 'care in the community' for others. That's their basis.

                    By needing to ask why atheists would feel like this, that shows that you might need to get to know them better, maybe?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by eider View Post


                      By needing to ask why atheists would feel like this, that shows that you might need to get to know them better, maybe?
                      I believe what is being asked for here is a concise logical syllogism as to the basis by which the atheist condemns racism. Is it possible to fit this into such a format?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                        I believe what is being asked for here is a concise logical syllogism as to the basis by which the atheist condemns racism. Is it possible to fit this into such a format?
                        It's logical that atheists believe that this is their only existence. Ergo this life is of highest value. Therefore their empathy logically extends to all human life. So most atheists will tend to support all equality issues.

                        ​​​​​​Concisely...... :)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by eider View Post

                          But you've asked ':- ......on what basis does the atheist condemn racism?......... and now I find that you have a list of prejudices all your own. Many Theists, Non-Theists and Atheists are all mostly reasonable folks who believe in a community which other people can live in without fear, harassment, victimization or exclusion, simply because they have a sense of 'care in the community' for others. That's their basis.
                          And that is not a logical or deductive argument.

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by eider View Post

                            It's logical that atheists believe that this is their only existence. Ergo this life is of highest value. Therefore their empathy logically extends to all human life....
                            That makes no sense, it does not follow.



                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              That makes no sense, it does not follow.
                              Well, not to you it may not.
                              Of course I'm making my best guess about how atheists might feel but as an observer I notice that many of them support a very large variety of victim types, supporting protection of harassment, victimisation and exclusion of a wide range of individual types already mentioned before.

                              You'll notice how you, a Theist, have showed that you have prejudices, and you've got to admit that the Abrahamic religions all do have many.


                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post

                                And that is not a logical or deductive argument.
                                Atheists are what they do. Thstso logical isn't it?

                                Comment

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