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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Shuny is at it again, huh??
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      The earliest forms of Judaism were mixed with Ugarite and Sumarian polytheism including extracts from their cuniform texts and names for gods
      This is very strange phrasing. It is modern readers who know about Ugarit and Sumerian mythology from extracts of cuneiform tablets. You make it sound like the Ancient Hebrews themselves sat down and cobbled together their beliefs from extract cuneiform texts. More likely than not, they simply adopted and incorporated those beliefs from those they lived with or lived near. They didn't actually have to sit down and extract those ideas directly from cuneiform texts. I mean, you're assuming that the Ancient Israelis even know how to read Sumerian cuneiform. I don't know of any evidence for that. Furthermore, that they adopted certain ideas from surrounding cultures in no way, shape, or form means that all of the "earliest forms of Judaism" derive from those sources, but we've already had that discussion, where, predictably, you babbled on not knowing what the heck you were talking about for page after page while those who did constantly corrected you:

      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...naanite-Psalms

      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ight=cuneiform

      You're a glutton for trouble, but good for a laugh I suppose.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I think you misunderstand robrecht's "accusation" (and to be clear, this thread is mostly a reply to robrecht). He's mostly against the polemical tone you take towards those who self-identify as Monotheists. But I'm sure he'll be more than happy to correct you (not that you'll listen, of course).
        Robrecht's objections go further than a 'euphemistic' trivial consideration 'polemic tone.' He considers the view of the Trinity being a form of polytheistic (Tritheism) belief as misrepresenting and misinterpreting Christian beliefs. This also represents the fallacy of an 'appeal to authority,' proposing that the authority and beliefs of Christianity and the theologians cannot be questioned with an alternative explanation of the Trinity. If it questions the Trinity it represents a misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the Trinity dogma and doctrine.

        I am not a believer, therefore I have no obligation to tow the line of the Christian theologians and authorities that argue for the validity of the Trinity as true description of the nature of God.


        Concerning Michael C. Rea's paper, I'm thinking most "Social-Trinitarians" would take major issue with what he hand waves away as "superficial differences" between Amun-Re theology and ST-Christianity on page 141. That said, Rea is a Christian philosopher, and he does not reject the Trinity altogether. Far from it as your own citation points out,
        "If, however, there are interpretations of the doctrine of the Trinity which (while avoiding the heresy of modalism) are consistent with monotheism, [And I think that there are: see Brower and Rea (2005).] . . ."

        Rea's issue is with various common defenses of the Trinity, particularly those that he refers to as "Social Trinitarianism", and most version of "Relative-Identity Trinitarianism", he (along with Jeffrey E. Brower) offers instead a different defense of the orthodox understanding of the Trinity that he believes to be far more robust that he refers to as the "Aristotelian Solution" which you can read about here.

        Rea's issues with Social Trinitarianism have almost nothing in common with your own complaints about the Trinity. He believes that the Trinity can be understood correctly both intuitively and dogmatically, but I'm certain you picked up on this paper after much "research", which amounted to whatever you could hit upon by desperately googling the keywords "Trinity" and "polytheism".
        Rea's paper justifies an interpretation that the Trinity may be considered a polytheistic belief, not that it is the only alternative. I consider this a viable opposing view to the believe that the Trinity is a polytheistic (Tritheism) belief other than the Trinity may be considered monotheism.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2016, 09:05 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          You use this Cheshire Cat emoticon all the time. What particular meaning do you associate with that emoticon that you use it as a defense against criticism?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Rea's paper justifies an interpretation that the Trinity may be considered a polytheistic belief. I consider this a viable opposing view to the belief that the Trinity may be considered monotheism.
            Oh, so then you've read, and are okay with his Aristotelian solution then, correct?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              You use this Cheshire Cat emoticon all the time. What particular meaning do you associate with that emoticon that you use it as a defense against criticism?
              When posters make insults and fail to address the issues, and make Gooney bird fly bys dumping their smelly loads in the thread. It is very descriptive of a prevalent problem.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                When posters make insults and fail to address the issues, and make Gooney bird fly bys dumping their smelly loads in the thread. It is very descriptive of a prevalent problem.
                That's some thin skin you're wearing if you think, "Shuny is at it again, huh??" is an insult. Also, you need to stop with these goofy aphorisms. Most of them make you sound like a goofball. Half of them are plain incorrect, the other half are more true of you than of others, especially your stupid "duck, bob, and weave" complaint. You are the very definition of "duck, bob, and weave". You constantly ignore, or talk around questions and comments put directly to you, or answer people by mimicking them. It's weird telling an old man this, but you really need to grow up.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  When posters make insults and fail to address the issues, and make Gooney bird fly bys dumping their smelly loads in the thread. It is very descriptive of a prevalent problem.
                  Odd that it happens a LOT in your threads, huh? Maybe there's a common factor... ...like your posting habits (see Adrift's comments above)...?

                  Shunya, sometimes you just really don't know much about what you're talking about, and it's obvious to those who do, and even some like me, who don't know much. You could gain a lot of credibility by being willing to learn from others, by asking open-minded questions, and by accepting when you're wrong about something. Just a thought...
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Jesus is not the problem. It is the Hellenist Paul's version of Christianity that is the problem.
                    Jesus called Himself things like 'Son of God', 'Son of Man', called God His 'Father', addressed Him in shockingly intimate ways, and acted in ways that clearly implied that Jesus took Himself to be God - yet not 'God the Father'. Jesus kind of is the problem.
                    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The Trinity is an explanation of God and the relationship of God the Father, The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, not polytheistic.
                      Last edited by 37818; 09-10-2016, 12:07 PM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        The Trinity is an explanation of God and the relationship of God the Father, The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, not polytheistic.
                        So the Trinity is an explanation of gods relationship with himself?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Obviously true, but I gave a diversity sources of academics.
                          Shaw, an academic?
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            This is very strange phrasing. It is modern readers who know about Ugarit and Sumerian mythology from extracts of cuneiform tablets. You make it sound like the Ancient Hebrews themselves sat down and cobbled together their beliefs from extract cuneiform texts. More likely than not, they simply adopted and incorporated those beliefs from those they lived with or lived near. They didn't actually have to sit down and extract those ideas directly from cuneiform texts. I mean, you're assuming that the Ancient Israelis even know how to read Sumerian cuneiform. I don't know of any evidence for that. Furthermore, that they adopted certain ideas from surrounding cultures in no way, shape, or form means that all of the "earliest forms of Judaism" derive from those sources,
                            The earliest forms of Hebrew writing were derivatives of Ugarit and Canaanite cuneiform. The myths and legends and parts of the Psalms in the Hebrew Torah clearly predate any known Hebrew text in the cuneiform of Babylonian, Canaanite and Ugarit texts. Where did they come from if Hebrews could not read cuneiform? The Hebrews were originally a pastoral Canaanite tribe.

                            . . . but we've already had that discussion, where, predictably, you babbled on not knowing what the heck you were talking about for page after page while those who did constantly corrected you:

                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...naanite-Psalms

                            http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ight=cuneiform

                            You're a glutton for trouble, but good for a laugh I suppose.
                            Napoleon also won the battle of Waterloo. Laugh away!

                            The bottom line is that many if not most Christians believe that the plural references in the Pentateuch support the belief in the Trinity.The reality is they were references to Ugarite and Canaanite polytheism, and the later use of the plural in Hebrew to refer to the omnipotent power of the singular monotheistic God.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2016, 04:38 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              The Trinity is an explanation of God and the relationship of God the Father, The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit, not polytheistic.
                              That is an assertion that is hard to backup when the Trinity refers to three distinct individual Divine persons described as Gods.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                                Shaw, an academic?
                                Yes, your quibbling splitting frog hairs over what is an academic.

                                Source: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1925/shaw-bio.html



                                George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) was born in Dublin, the son of a civil servant. His education was irregular, due to his dislike of any organized training. After working in an estate agent's office for a while he moved to London as a young man (1876), where he established himself as a leading music and theatre critic in the eighties and nineties and became a prominent member of the Fabian Society, for which he composed many pamphlets. He began his literary career as a novelist; as a fervent advocate of the new theatre of Ibsen (The Quintessence of Ibsenism, 1891) he decided to write plays in order to illustrate his criticism of the English stage. His earliest dramas were called appropriately Plays Pleasant and Unpleasant (1898). Among these, Widower's Houses and Mrs. Warren's Profession savagely attack social hypocrisy, while in plays such as Arms and the Man and The Man of Destiny the criticism is less fierce. Shaw's radical rationalism, his utter disregard of conventions, his keen dialectic interest and verbal wit often turn the stage into a forum of ideas, and nowhere more openly than in the famous discourses on the Life Force, «Don Juan in Hell», the third act of the dramatization of woman's love chase of man, Man and Superman (1903).

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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