Originally posted by Christian3
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
Exactly! It may be helpful to note that the Trinity doctrine is not to explain everything about God but is to contain all of what is known. So when we observe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man, we are not explaining how this is possible but only that this best describes what we find in scripture. It is not that we find this point appearing in a verse but that any doctrine short of this will fail to describe all that is said about Christ. Anything short of this denies that which was known from the start. The deniers' views either forget the Shema, miss Christ as part of the Godhead, or lose the relevance of Christ's death on the cross. Someone may find a better way "containing" the details of Christ than saying he is 100%God and 100% man, but this is the best we currently have. (I can envision ways that this is possible. Since God created all things, He can work out results that go far beyond our imagination.)
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[QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1198065][QUOTE=Tassman;n1197484]Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
That belief raises all sorts of questions. What died on the cross? A man? A god? Can a god be killed by humans?
If Jesus was both fully god and fully man how do we explain the "divinely inspired holy writ" of Luke 2.56? If Jesus was a perfect being fully incorporated into the Godhead, he did not need to increase in either stature or wisdom. The account in Luke must therefore be wrong.
Furthermore, at which times when Jesus was speaking was he flesh, imperfect humanity and at which times was he Christ, God the Son? And how did these mere humans establish when Jesus was speaking as "imperfect humanity" , and when Jesus was speaking as "Christ, God the Son"?
The subordinationists had a much stronger case and far more scripture to back it up.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
Why don't you propose a theory that explains the scriptures that underlie the Trinitarian doctrine? Certainly you have made better sense of scripture or you would not be so certain about your complaint against the Trinitarian doctrine. It is one thing to complain against an idea that you don't like but it is not very intelligent to do this without proposing something better -- and I mean something proposed on the idea that scripture is divinely inspired, not a proposal from a pure atheistic view. (I should note that there are atheistic theologians who study the scriptures, doctrines, and related discussions in a Christian context.)
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
There is no “complaint” against the doubled nature of Jesus (i.e. the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union) or the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (i.e. one God, consisting of three coeternal consubstantial persons) other than the fact that these doctrines are logical nonsense. They are convoluted theological attempts to explain how Jesus could be God whilst at the same time maintaining the Judaic necessity of a monotheistic religion.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
. i didn't ask for more opinion on the existing Trinity doctrine. I just noted that you need something better to recommend, or you are not contributing to anything.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
What you asked for doesn't exist. "The scriptures that underlie the Trinitarian doctrine" were never thought to be references to a Trinitarian deity (and STILL aren't by the Jews). There is NO verse from the Hebrew Bible that explicitly teaches the Trinity nor the related doctrine of the 'double-nature' of Christ. All we have are cherry-picked referenced from scripture that supposedly support the theological notion of Jesus as god - a bit tricky when you adhere to a monotheistic religion. .Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
What you asked for doesn't exist. "The scriptures that underlie the Trinitarian doctrine" were never thought to be references to a Trinitarian deity (and STILL aren't by the Jews). There is NO verse from the Hebrew Bible that explicitly teaches the Trinity nor the related doctrine of the 'double-nature' of Christ. All we have are cherry-picked referenced from scripture that supposedly support the theological notion of Jesus as god - a bit tricky when you adhere to a monotheistic religion. .
"Of course, we should not ascribe the later developed doctrine of the Trinity to NT writers (not because they rejected such a doctrine, but because the philosophical questions and categories had not arisen among them in their time). But it is clear that the theological developments that led to the doctrine of the Trinity were to some significant degree prompted and even made unavoidable by the dyadic (God and Jesus) devotional pattern and the triadic (God, Jesus and Spirit) shape of discourse about God that we see amply attested in the NT texts."
I agree that there are no Hebrew explicit texts that teach the trinity but as Hurtado notes there are some 75 references to the Spirit in the OT and 275 in the NT. I believe I get your point about cherry-picking but it seems that the earliest communities following Jesus, post 'Resurrection,' were sincerely trying to understand and articulate their experience of this man they had known and searched their scriptures for guidance.
It is interesting that Huratdo refers to a 'mutation' or innovation in the Christian understanding of monotheistic Judaism but such mutations seem legitimate in that the disciples were trying to 'account' for their experience of Jesus.
Hurtado is one of the best and it is a useful blog.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The problem is not whether the Tanakh "explicitly" teaches the nature of God as Trinitarian. The problem is that Christians use ancient polytheistic descriptions from the Pentateuch to justify the Trinity that evolved from the ancient Canaanite/Ugarat polytheistic beliefs found in their cuneiform writings including the names of Gods.
I ask, in part. because. given the Hurtado reference above. I am not seeing a use of ancient polytheistic descriptions. What I am seeing is the many references to the word and spirit of God in the Hebrew scriptures and the sincere effort of the 'Christians' to deal with their experience of Jesus.Last edited by thormas; 10-21-2020, 06:33 AM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
What you asked for doesn't exist. "The scriptures that underlie the Trinitarian doctrine" were never thought to be references to a Trinitarian deity (and STILL aren't by the Jews). There is NO verse from the Hebrew Bible that explicitly teaches the Trinity nor the related doctrine of the 'double-nature' of Christ. All we have are cherry-picked referenced from scripture that supposedly support the theological notion of Jesus as god - a bit tricky when you adhere to a monotheistic religion. .
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
I am interested, do you have a source or source to share on this issue?
I ask, in part. because. given the Hurtado reference above. I am not seeing a use of ancient polytheistic descriptions. What I am seeing is the many references to the word and spirit of God in the Hebrew scriptures and the sincere effort of the 'Christians' to deal with their experience of Jesus.
The following is an interesting source to begin discussion.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
I don't understand your point. We have 27 books in the New Testament plus the Old Testament. These have to be related together. So, I was asking for your "merging" of ideas about the Messiah that give a better picture of those pieces than the Trinity. Certainly you can do this to explain the relationship of all these pieces in a better fashion than the Trinity. .
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The problem is not whether the Tanakh "explicitly" teaches the nature of God as Trinitarian. The problem is that Christians use ancient polytheistic descriptions from the Pentateuch to justify the Trinity that evolved from the ancient Canaanite/Ugarat polytheistic beliefs found in their cuneiform writings including the names of Gods.Last edited by Tassman; 10-21-2020, 11:50 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Yes, the early Christians used whatever they could find in Hebrew scripture to justify a ‘three in one God’ – including ancient polytheistic descriptions from the Pentateuch. There is a very good account of these ancient polytheistic descriptions in Robert Wright’s brilliant book, “The Evolution of God.”
And the early monotheism of Judaism did 'recognize' that there were other gods but not sure what you mean by polytheistic descriptions specifically in Jewish or Christian understandings of God.
Also I do agree that the early communities of Christians did turn to their scriptures to somehow get a handle and better understand their Jesus - however I don't see this as justification (at least in the negative sense). They had known Jesus, they had their experience of the 'resurrection' and, again, it seems that they were trying to understand and explain.............most specifically about his messiahship.
If polytheistic refers to mention of the spirit or word of God, I have never seem them as 'other gods' within Judaism but rather descriptions or stories of their God in relationship to and with them.
So until I get the book and until I read the article presented earlier, any explanation of what you see as polytheistic descriptions used by Christians?Last edited by thormas; 10-22-2020, 05:53 AM.
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