Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[Trucker]

You just made an absolute statement.

.....

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You just made an absolute statement.

Based on attested historical evidence.

World War II started on 3 September 1939. That is also "an absolute statement" based on attested historical evidence.

[DesertBerean]

Based on attested historical evidence.

World War II started on 3 September 1939. That is also "an absolute statement" based on attested historical evidence.

Granted. That is a very well attested point in history.

I'm not so sure that kind of certainty can be established for the doctrine of the Trinity being a fourth century construct as you claim.

[Dan Zebiri]

Sheer hypocrisy siam.

Here's what the "word of Allah" in Surah 33/25-27 says to muslims to conquer properties, assets, lands and regions they have never been to before:

"God / Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. So that some ye SLEW, and some ye MADE PRISONERS.

And He made you muslims Heirs of THEIR LANDS, their HOUSES, and their GOODS, and of A LAND which ye had not frequented (IE. GONE TO) BEFORE."

Sura 33/25-27 (Yusuf Ali version)

Show me in the Matthew 28 verses you cited, WHERE Jesus Christ commanded His disciples and followers to "SLAY, TAKE PRISONERS / Forcefully abduct" then "GRAB lands, houses, properties and WHOLE REGIONS" that are NOT THEIRS, like muslims are commanded to physically conquer ILLEGITIMATELY in sura al-Ahzab above ?

These koranic verses are the real perpetrators inciting to wanton hegemony and expansionism, which the caliphs and their henchmen are just happy to oblige.

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)

This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as GodÂ’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.

https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism



Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.

[mikewhitney]

With regard to the Christian texts, of course there isn't. We have no original MSS and rely on copies of copies of copies. Nor are any of the narrative details within these texts confirmed by other extraneous contemporary sources.

I'm surprised you make this amateurish claim. I guess this is a bit easier to fall into in informal discussions in forum threads.

I assume you don't get deep into the textual criticism related to the ability to determine the original text of the NT writings (while having no doctrines affected by the minor differences that are harder to clean up).

If you can overcome the arguments of the textual criticism on the accuracy of the reconstructed Greek, you can certainly address that.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Granted. That is a very well attested point in history.

I'm not so sure that kind of certainty can be established for the doctrine of the Trinity being a fourth century construct as you claim.

Read Eusebius of Caesarea's account of the First Council of Nicaea.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I'm surprised you make this amateurish claim.

You are welcome to produce evidence for a complete original MSS of any of the four gospels.

[mikewhitney]

You are welcome to produce evidence for a complete original MSS of any of the four gospels.

You are making a useless argument here. You are chasing a rabbit. I'm still surprised you are taking this approach.

Maybe I am reading too much in to your request? It sounded like you were asking for the original pages intact after 2000 years. The Nestle-Alan NA28 is broadly accepted. Do you have issues with that text?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You are making a useless argument here. You are chasing a rabbit. I'm still surprised you are taking this approach.

Maybe I am reading too much in to your request? It sounded like you were asking for the original pages intact after 2000 years.

You appeared to consider that my comment was"amateurish". The Nestle-Alan NA28 uses the MSS that are extant. None of these are original MSS, as we do not have those original MSS. We are therefore relying, as I wrote earlier, upon copies of copies of copies with all the attendant scribal errors etc. I recommend Peter Cresswell's The Invention of Jesus: How the Church rewrote the New Testament on this issue.

[DesertBerean]

Read Eusebius of Caesarea's account of the First Council of Nicaea.

If I recall rightly, the first Council confirmed the EXISTENCE of the Trinity doctrine by their rejection of Arius. They also, with some controversy, confirmed the concept of Father and Son being of the same substance. Does Eusebius add to this?

[rogue06]

And yet they did "behave in such a manner", in very large numbers and for many generations.

People are still people. They tend to do things how they want to do them regardless of what they are told.

I guess you never had any kids.

[rogue06]

Yet to be demonstrated or argued for in any convincing manner.

shuny is one of those who thinks that by merely making an assertion that he is corroborating it. And by simply repeating his original claim that he is providing further substantiation.

[Christian3]

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” ( Matthew 28:18-20, New International Version.)

This section of Scripture is known as the Great Commission. As the last recorded personal directive of Jesus to his disciples, it holds great significance to all his followers. It is the theological foundation for Christian evangelism, Crusades, and the Doctrine of Discovery. Christians have read this statement as God’s mandate to convert the world to Christianity so that the millennium could begin.

https://christianhegemony.org/the-do...exceptionalism



Note:---In the 21st century, the doctrine of discovery have been "repudiated" by many Christian denominations/Churches globally. (The list is too large to link)
also a reminder---justifications for conquest are not uniquely "Christian" but universally human.

You do know that the Christian participation in the Crusades was in response of at least 400 years of aggression of Muslim against Christians, don't you?

[Christian3]

Read Eusebius of Caesarea's account of the First Council of Nicaea.

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

The Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

[Christian3]

You appeared to consider that my comment was"amateurish". The Nestle-Alan NA28 uses the MSS that are extant. None of these are original MSS, as we do not have those original MSS. We are therefore relying, as I wrote earlier, upon copies of copies of copies with all the attendant scribal errors etc. I recommend Peter Cresswell's The Invention of Jesus: How the Church rewrote the New Testament on this issue.

There are thousands of copies of the New Testament and in various language; textual analysis can pinpoint any variants and they have and none of them negatively affects Christians doctrine, even Bart Ehrman agrees.