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  • Originally posted by thormas View Post


    It is not what is meaningful in ones's life like hobbies, travel, golf, movies, and on and on - the question is what is the purpose, what is the meaning, if any, of the individual man or humanity as a whole?

    You are still talking about the 'meaning we give our lives' when I am asking about the meaning of man.

    You seem to not have an answer, neither does the atheist.

    Christianity (and other religions) does.
    Again, again, and again . . . I do not generalize and stereotype about the beliefs of others including atheists concerning 'the meaning of life.' To frankly add it is very likely that many people construct a purpose, because they fear there is 'no purpose.'

    I have met atheists and agnostics that sincerely believe there is no purpose beyond this life, and believe purpose rests in their children, grand children and on and on.

    Take the Taoist and the Zen Buddhist of the Orient. Many Taoists, Zen Buddhists, and other Buddhists believe there is no purpose beyond this life, and simply believe in the ultimate extinction of the illusion of purpose is the end.

    'Thou doest protest too much.'
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by thormas View Post

      Well we disagree as I see man as unique.
      So, you keep saying. But .you have yet to substantiate your claim of “man as unique”. In what way is man “unique” compared to other intelligent social species – past and present?

      But you have made my case: there have been other hominid species and except for anthropologists, they are not remembered, they mean nothing in the scope of a universe that continues while they have simply been wiped from the face of the earth; a universe that took no notice of these hominids.
      There is no "case". All life that went before us is of interest to educated, informed people. This is why we mobilize our capabilities to study the history of the planet and previous civilizations plus the different eras of our planet – Precambrian, Paleozoic, Mesozoic and Cenozoic – and explore and seek to understand the universe via testing scientific predictions and developing scientific theories, walking on the moon, preparing go to Mars and launching space-probes etc.

      Humans are a curious species – as were our archaic predecessors - and we seek to understand how the universe functions and how we ourselves function. This is why we read and write books go to movies and compose symphonies.

      So too (eventually) for you, all your loved one and as Shunhy mentioned all those many hobbyists, travel buffs and finance guys. Nada. And in spite of what passes for meaning in their lives - their lives like those of homo erectus mean nothing in the limitlessness of time and space in the universe.
      So, what is the alternative you are offering to find “meaning” in the “limitlessness of time and space in the universe” if you cannot find satisfying meaning in the extraordinarily diverse world of culture, research and family love that most of us find sufficient?
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        Again, again, and again . . . I do not generalize and stereotype about the beliefs of others including atheists concerning 'the meaning of life.' To frankly add it is very likely that many people construct a purpose, because they fear there is 'no purpose.'

        I have met atheists and agnostics that sincerely believe there is no purpose beyond this life, and believe purpose rests in their children, grand children and on and on.

        Take the Taoist and the Zen Buddhist of the Orient. Many Taoists, Zen Buddhists, and other Buddhists believe there is no purpose beyond this life, and simply believe in the ultimate extinction of the illusion of purpose is the end.

        'Thou doest protest too much.'
        You seemingly have no answer even for yourself or even for others in such a discussion - only what an individual can make meaningful. Really, comic books were meaningful to me when I was a kid. And golf is a religion to many grown men and women today. Comic books and golf!

        But there we go, many construct because they fear there is no purpose - Christianity says, i.e. believes there is. There is the point of this discussion!

        As for the east, we can also discuss the who, what and why of the illusion.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by thormas View Post

          You seemingly have no answer even for yourself or even for others in such a discussion - only what an individual can make meaningful. Really, comic books were meaningful to me when I was a kid. And golf is a religion to many grown men and women today. Comic books and golf!

          But there we go, many construct because they fear there is no purpose - Christianity says, i.e. believes there is. There is the point of this discussion!

          As for the east, we can also discuss the who, what and why of the illusion.
          Seemingly?!?!? I have answered the problem with your view of atheists, and my view of the meaning of life has not been addressed and is not an issue at present.

          The problem is there are many 'purpose of life' beliefs in different cultures that are atheistic, and they believe there is meaning in their lives. The Oriental belief systems are now world wide and not just the Orient, and include many atheists. The consideration the physical existence is an illusion is only one option.

          There remains the problem that you generalize and stereotype atheists concerning what is the 'meaning of life' from an egocentric perspective.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-20-2020, 06:51 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            So, you keep saying. But .you have yet to substantiate your claim of “man as unique”. In what way is man “unique” compared to other intelligent social species – past and present?

            There is no "case". All life that went before us is of interest to educated, informed people. This is why we mobilize our capabilities to study the history of the planet and previous civilizations plus the different eras of our planet – Precambrian, Paleozoic, Mesozoic and Cenozoic – and explore and seek to understand the universe via testing scientific predictions and developing scientific theories, walking on the moon, preparing go to Mars and launching space-probes etc.

            Humans are a curious species – as were our archaic predecessors - and we seek to understand how the universe functions and how we ourselves function. This is why we read and write books go to movies and compose symphonies.

            So, what is the alternative you are offering to find “meaning” in the “limitlessness of time and space in the universe” if you cannot find satisfying meaning in the extraordinarily diverse world of culture, research and family love that most of us find sufficient?
            Actually I have said that man's intelligence and his self-consciousness (and all that results from those two) is what makes him unique. I think both make him different in not just degree but that degree is sufficient to make him different in kind.

            The case is made. Of course we read and study history but those individuals (and the vast, vast majority of those in even more recent times and ours) of those ages are not even remembered as individuals and as individuals had no impact. Plus who reads about them but a small number (compared to the present numbers of humans in the world) who soon also will not exist or be remembered. Again I ask, what is the purpose of man for the atheist? How we function is one thing, what it means is another and in the end.......it means nothing (in this stance).
            .
            That is just it: I can find, I do profess meaning in the extraordinarily diverse world of culture, research and family love because I believe there is “meaning” - that man has meaning as man - in the “limitlessness of time and space in the universe” Actually it is this that enables 'most of us' to find 'satisfying meaning' in even the mundane.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Seemingly?!?!? I have answered the problem with your view of atheists, and my view of the meaning of life has not been addressed and is not an issue at present.

              The problem is there are many 'purpose of life' beliefs in different cultures that are atheistic, and they believe there is meaning in their lives. The Oriental belief systems are now world wide and not just the Orient, and include many atheists. The consideration the physical existence is an illusion is only one option.

              There remains the problem that you generalize and stereotype atheists concerning what is the 'meaning of life' from an egocentric perspective.
              Actually the discussion continues and you're either in or out. You have not answered and it is an issue (if you're in): what is the purpose of man, why is man meaningful - it is not merely about what man 'finds' or makes meaningful like hobbies, gold, comic books, movies, finance, etc. What do you say is the purpose of man? Do you say man is meaningful as man in the vastness of the universe or not?

              I have never had an issue acknowledging or discussing the views of others and what they posit is the purpose of life or the meaning of man - but the question is now before you.........and it has not been answered.



              Even to say that existence is an illusion has multiple meanings - what say you of the meaning and the purpose - if any - of man.
              Last edited by thormas; 11-20-2020, 07:55 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                Actually the discussion continues and you're either in or out. You have not answered and it is an issue (if you're in): what is the purpose of man, why is man meaningful - it is not merely about what man 'finds' or makes meaningful like hobbies, gold, comic books, movies, finance, etc. What do you say is the purpose of man? Do you say man is meaningful as man in the vastness of the universe or not?
                Yes, it is possible for humanity to be the meaning of life as humanity. I do not judge the question of the meaning of life of those who who believe differently.

                I am neither in nor out.

                I have never had an issue acknowledging or discussing the views of others and what they posit is the purpose of life or the meaning of man - but the question is now before you.........and it has not been answered.
                It has been answered repeatedly, and you refuse to acknowledge it. You do have a very egocentric stereotyping issue as to what atheists believe is the 'meaning of life' from your religious perspective.



                Even to say that existence is an illusion has multiple meanings - what say you of the meaning and the purpose - if any - of man.
                yes the believing in the world is an illusion has many meanings, so what!?!?! IT is pretty much well reasoned that those of the Oriental beliefs can be happy and find meaning in life without God.

                Actually what I say has no meaning necessarily for the 'reason of life' of those who believe differently. I gave one reason, and you have not acknowledged it. I have been personally told be come atheists that their meaning in life is in their children, grand children and on and on, and appreciating the journey through the wonderful and beautiful world around them..

                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                  Yes, it is possible for humanity to be the meaning of life as humanity. I do not judge the question of the meaning of life of those who who believe differently.

                  I am neither in nor out.



                  It has been answered repeatedly, and you refuse to acknowledge it. You do have a very egocentric stereotyping issue as to what atheists believe is the 'meaning of life' from your religious perspective.





                  yes the believing in the world is an illusion has many meanings, so what!?!?! IT is pretty much well reasoned that those of the Oriental beliefs can be happy and find meaning in life without God.

                  Actually what I say has no meaning necessarily for the 'reason of life' of those who believe differently. I gave one reason, and you have not acknowledged it. I have been personally told be come atheists that their meaning in life is in their children, grand children and on and on, and appreciating the journey through the wonderful and beautiful world around them..
                  No one is asking you to judge for others, I am asking you about your judgement or simply what you believe. But what does your first sentence even mean: it is possible for humanity to be the meaning of life as humanity?? Explain.

                  Sorry but you have not answered at all (and this answer above, as indicated, needs clarification).

                  You cast aspersions but offer no answer of your own. I have no problem acknowledging that man is the center (properly understood) as you say based on my belief but my particular ego is not at stake here. As I have said, I have great and best friends who are atheists but we are able to discuss our very different beliefs or stances and still ..............be friends. This is a discussion pure and simple, I actually don't care that other people have different views; it is how one acts that is the cruz of life and that's why I am always after the 'Christians' on the site over some of their statements against others. My intention here is not to convince anyone who disagrees but merely to question some ramifications of their belief and I am willing to answer similar questions put to me. My stance is indeed from my religious or, better, my philosophical/theological perspective as the atheist's stance if from his/her particular perspective. Tell us something we don't already know.
                  Last edited by thormas; 11-20-2020, 08:42 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                    No one is asking you to judge for others, I am asking you about your judgement or simply what you believe. But what does your first sentence even mean: it is possible for humanity to be the meaning of life as humanity?? Explain.
                    It is simply possible for a wide variety of reasons and I gave one and you refused to acknowledge it. My view is not an issue her. It is your problem with acknowledging that others can have a 'meaning in life' without God. One big difference is you are making negative stereotypic assumptions concerning what atheists believe is the 'meaning of life,' and I do not. I dialogue with atheists and recognize the diversity of their views 'of the meaning of life.'

                    Sorry but you have not answered at all (and this answer above, as indicated, needs clarification).
                    Question answered repeatedly.

                    You cast aspersions but offer no answer of your own. I have no problem acknowledging that man is the center (properly understood) as you say based on my belief but my particular ego is not at stake here. As I have said, I have great and best friends who are atheists but we are able to discuss our very different beliefs or stances and still ..............be friends. This is a discussion pure and simple, I actually don't care that other people have different views; it is how one acts that is the cruz of life and that's why I am always after the 'Christians' on the site over some of their statements against others. My intention here is not to convince anyone who disagrees but merely to question some ramifications of their belief and I am willing to answer similar questions put to me. My stance is indeed from my religious or, better, my philosophical/theological perspective as the atheist's stance if from his/her particular perspective. Tell us something we don't already know.
                    It is your casting aspersions and judgmental attitude atheists in particular, that is an issue here.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-20-2020, 08:52 AM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      It is simply possible for a wide variety of reasons and I gave one and you refused to acknowledge it. My view is not an issue her. It is your problem with acknowledging that others can have a 'meaning in life' without God. One big difference is you are making negative stereotypic assumptions concerning what atheists believe is the 'meaning of life,' and I do not. I dialogue with atheists and recognize the diversity of their views 'of the meaning of life.'

                      Question answered repeatedly.

                      It is your casting aspersions and judgmental attitude atheists in particular, that is an issue here.
                      I know there are many possible answers, I have been asking about yours, not all the rest. So what is your one? Assume I missed it which I must have.

                      I have no problem with nor do I believe I have said I have a problem with others finding or placing meaning in different things in life - I do this also. But I have been asking the bigger question about the purpose of life or the meaning of the human (not an individual man's interests/meaning found in, for example, hobbies). Obviously people can and do have meaning in life without a belief in God and I am simply asking what they say is the 'overall' meaning of existence or creation and specifically the human. If they say there is then I ask what it is; if they say there is none, that is fine but, in such a discussion, I am free to discuss what I think are the ramifications of such a stance.

                      It has been suggested that religions that the idea of a religious ultimate meaning in the next world results in an escape from this life - and rather than get huffy, I have responded. I expect the same unless one is unwilling or incapable of proceeding that far into the discussion.

                      I have not said the atheist (as a person) is less because I do not believe or accept that.

                      Sadly you are still about the accusations rather than having a discussion. A bit disappointing.
                      Last edited by thormas; 11-20-2020, 09:31 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                        I know there are many possible answers, I have been asking about yours, not all the rest. So what is your one? Assume I missed it which I must have.
                        NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE DISCUSSION NOR THE THREAD.

                        [quote] I have no problem with nor do I believe I have said I have a problem with others finding or placing meaning in different things in life - I do this also. But I have been asking the bigger question about the purpose of life or the meaning of the human (not an individual man's interests/meaning found in, for example, hobbies). Obviously people can and do have meaning in life without a belief in God and I am simply asking what they say is the 'overall' meaning of existence or creation and specifically the human. If they say there is then I ask what it is; if they say there is none, that is fine but, in such a discussion, I am free to discuss what I think are the ramifications of such a stance.

                        It has been suggested that religions that the idea of a religious ultimate meaning in the next world results in an escape from this life - and rather than get huffy, I have responded. I expect the same unless one is unwilling or incapable of proceeding that far into the discussion.

                        I have not said the atheist (as a person) is less because I do not believe or accept that.

                        Sadly you are still about the accusations rather than having a discussion. A bit disappointing.
                        Sadly you have very disappointing avoiding the issue of our discussion.

                        'Say there is none?' . . . again this is a problem of assumptions on your part of what the diversity people believe.

                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • [QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1207489]

                          NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE DISCUSSION NOR THE THREAD.

                          I have no problem with nor do I believe I have said I have a problem with others finding or placing meaning in different things in life - I do this also. But I have been asking the bigger question about the purpose of life or the meaning of the human (not an individual man's interests/meaning found in, for example, hobbies). Obviously people can and do have meaning in life without a belief in God and I am simply asking what they say is the 'overall' meaning of existence or creation and specifically the human. If they say there is then I ask what it is; if they say there is none, that is fine but, in such a discussion, I am free to discuss what I think are the ramifications of such a stance.

                          It has been suggested that religions that the idea of a religious ultimate meaning in the next world results in an escape from this life - and rather than get huffy, I have responded. I expect the same unless one is unwilling or incapable of proceeding that far into the discussion.

                          I have not said the atheist (as a person) is less because I do not believe or accept that.



                          Sadly you have very disappointing avoiding the issue of our discussion.

                          'Say there is none?' . . . again this is a problem of assumptions on your part of what the diversity people believe.
                          Amazing, now you fall back on a new excuse. This thread, like many of them do, has wandered and it is entirely appropriate to answer the question - or simply start a new thread.

                          My take is that you have no answer which in itself is fine but the dodging and obfuscation is not something to be respected or accepted. This is very weird coming from you??
                          Last edited by thormas; 11-20-2020, 10:05 AM.

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=thormas;n1207495]
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                            NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE DISCUSSION NOR THE THREAD.



                            Amazing, now you fall back on a new excuse. This thread, like many of them do, has wandered and it is entirely appropriate to answer the question - or simply start a new thread.

                            My take is that you have no answer which in itself is fine but the dodging and obfuscation is not something to be respected or accepted. This is very weird coming from you??
                            No excuses, just your failure to justify your stereotyping what atheists believe concerning the 'meaning of life.' Changing the subject does not help your case.

                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1207502]
                              Originally posted by thormas View Post

                              No excuses, just your failure to justify your stereotyping what atheists believe concerning the 'meaning of life.' Changing the subject does not help your case.
                              I have no idea what you are talking about and I am now bored with one who cannot make their own case.

                              Comment


                              • [QUOTE=thormas;n1207507]
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                I have no idea what you are talking about and I am now bored with one who cannot make their own case.
                                I am now bored with one who cannot support their own case.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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