Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1197062][QUOTE=Christian3;n1197011]
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Despite the firmness of your assertion, I disagree. Based on specific citation of scripture Jesus is depicted as a distinct separate Deity.
    Give an example of what "specific citation of Scripture Jesus is depicted as a distinct separate Deity. I'm guessing you mean another God by "separate Deity."

    [QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1197062][QUOTE=Christian3;n1197011]
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Yours is one view, but not the only one in traditional Christianity, and the different conflicting views are claimed to be based on scripture including the belief that Jesus Christ is eternal with Creation, and Creation took place by his hand..
    Give examples. There are some people who believe in Christianity who misinterpret Scriptures. For example, Unitarians.




    Comment


    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

      Give an example of what "specific citation of Scripture Jesus is depicted as a distinct separate Deity. I'm guessing you mean another God by "separate Deity."
      Jesus Christ is seated on the right hand of God.

      Give examples. There are some people who believe in Christianity who misinterpret Scriptures. For example, Unitarians.
      Many different churches have beliefs where they consider alternate beliefs false based on the misinterpretation of scriptures. Actually the Unitarians are more humanist than anything else and do not believe in the Sccriptures as trditional Christians do. .

      Look up Church of the Later Day Saints, Jehovah Witnesses, and Unity Church at least.






      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        Jesus Christ is seated on the right hand of God.



        Many different churches have beliefs where they consider alternate beliefs false based on the misinterpretation of scriptures. Actually the Unitarians are more humanist than anything else and do not believe in the Sccriptures as trditional Christians do. .

        Look up Church of the Later Day Saints, Jehovah Witnesses, and Unity Church at least.

        I have already explained what being seated AT the right hand of God means. You just keeping repeating yourself. It was said to King David in Psalm 110.

        It is obvious you do not understand the concept of the Trinity even though it has been explained to you. The vast majority of Christians are trinitarians and they believe in one God and one God only.

        Here is another link for you: https://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html

        I can suggest some books for you about the Trinity; "The Forgotten Trinity" by James R. White and "Why You Should Believe in The Trinity" by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. Even though Bowman's book is directed at JW's, it is still a good source to understanding the concept of the Trinity.

        As for your list above, I suggest you read "The Kingdom of The Cults" by Walter Martin; "World Religions & Cults 101" by Bruce Bickel & Stan Jantz, and "Right Answers for Wrong Beliefs" by Matt Slick. I have all three books. I have done my homework.

        I'm sure you know that mainstream Islam considers your faith heretical.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

          I have already explained what being seated AT the right hand of God means. You just keeping repeating yourself. It was said to King David in Psalm 110.
          If you accept Psalm 110 simply confirms that Jesus Christ is a 'human Messiah' and not the incarnate God of the Trinity, If you consider Jesus Christ the incarnate Son of God than of of course, yes he is depicted as a distinct and separate God.

          It is obvious you do not understand the concept of the Trinity even though it has been explained to you. The vast majority of Christians are trinitarians and they believe in one God and one God only.

          Here is another link for you: https://www.gotquestions.org/Tritheism-Trinity.html

          I can suggest some books for you about the Trinity; "The Forgotten Trinity" by James R. White and "Why You Should Believe in The Trinity" by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. Even though Bowman's book is directed at JW's, it is still a good source to understanding the concept of the Trinity.
          I was raised in the Roman Church and completely understand the party line for the Trinity, and yes it is a polytheistic theology.

          As for your list above, I suggest you read "The Kingdom of The Cults" by Walter Martin; "World Religions & Cults 101" by Bruce Bickel & Stan Jantz, and "Right Answers for Wrong Beliefs" by Matt Slick. I have all three books. I have done my homework.
          I have read it long ago. It simply asserts that every faith that does not accept the party line is called a cult, nothing new.

          I'm sure you know that mainstream Islam considers your faith heretical.
          Yes, and many Jews consider Christianity heretical. So what!
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • [QUOTE=Christian3;n1196949][QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1196941]
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

            I think you might be confusing Jesus as a man and the second person of the Trinity becoming flesh.

            Jesus is one person with two natures.


            The official doctrine is that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, which is of course logical nonsense. .
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • [QUOTE=Tassman;n1197484][QUOTE=Christian3;n1196949]
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              The official doctrine is that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, which is of course logical nonsense. .
              . . . and the basis for the belief he is a distinct and separate Deity.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                If you accept Psalm 110 simply confirms that Jesus Christ is a 'human Messiah' and not the incarnate God of the Trinity, If you consider Jesus Christ the incarnate Son of God than of of course, yes he is depicted as a distinct and separate God.



                I was raised in the Roman Church and completely understand the party line for the Trinity, and yes it is a polytheistic theology.



                I have read it long ago. It simply asserts that every faith that does not accept the party line is called a cult, nothing new.



                Yes, and many Jews consider Christianity heretical. So what!
                I've tried to help you. Believe what you want to believe. You have lost this debate. This conversation is over.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                  I've tried to help you. Believe what you want to believe. You have lost this debate. This conversation is over.
                  Oh yeah! Like you claim a win like Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo. No one wins arguments such as these except those that arrogantly claim they are right, and everybody else is wrong like your silly book.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                    I've tried to help you. Believe what you want to believe. You have lost this debate. This conversation is over.
                    It is hard to make the goal their acceptance of the doctrine, as a favor to them. Shuny, of course, fails when he simply states a starting point as his "final" argument against the developed doctrine. The argument against the Trinity is not just to reassert the starting point. The argument must find a more complete explanation of points found in scripture. I think it is also hard to convince someone of something he has rejected due to his confusion. Most important, I don't think the Trinity doctrine is the starting point for someone to become justified with God.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                      I've tried to help you. Believe what you want to believe. You have lost this debate. This conversation is over.
                      Your sneering does not alter the fact that the doctrinal claim of the Hypostatic Union, namely that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, is logical nonsense. By all means proclaim it as a mystery of the faith, but don't pretend that it makes any sense other than fulfilling a theological necessity to maintain a monotheistic religion, whilst declaring Jesus to be god too.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        Your sneering does not alter the fact that the doctrinal claim of the Hypostatic Union, namely that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, is logical nonsense. By all means proclaim it as a mystery of the faith, but don't pretend that it makes any sense other than fulfilling a theological necessity to maintain a monotheistic religion, whilst declaring Jesus to be god too.
                        Why don't you propose a theory that explains the scriptures that underlie the Trinitarian doctrine? Certainly you have made better sense of scripture or you would not be so certain about your complaint against the Trinitarian doctrine. It is one thing to complain against an idea that you don't like but it is not very intelligent to do this without proposing something better -- and I mean something proposed on the idea that scripture is divinely inspired, not a proposal from a pure atheistic view. (I should note that there are atheistic theologians who study the scriptures, doctrines, and related discussions in a Christian context.)
                        Last edited by mikewhitney; 10-19-2020, 11:48 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                          Your sneering does not alter the fact that the doctrinal claim of the Hypostatic Union, namely that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, is logical nonsense. By all means proclaim it as a mystery of the faith, but don't pretend that it makes any sense other than fulfilling a theological necessity to maintain a monotheistic religion, whilst declaring Jesus to be god too.
                          I wonder if it is possible to understand Jesus as a man, like other men, but a man who embodies Love to a higher degree. If so, then Jesus is just like us in kind - but not in degree.

                          Actually, it is the case that in ordinary life we ascribe greater humanity to those who are the most loving and take away that designation from those who are the very opposite of love. Of the fireman on 911, the soldier who jumps on a grenade, the man who swims out into the ocean to save a child, to a doctor who gives to Covid patient until she herself is put into isolation, to so many others - all who give of themselves even unto death we say of them, "what a great man, the best of us all, a hero, a good human being, an extraordinary human being, etc." And, what of the serial killer, the Hitler, the terrorist, the rapist - we call them "Monster, inhuman, animal, the worse of humanity" ..........in recognition of their actions, we strip them of the title, human. We recognize that in some real way, they are not human.

                          So it seems that in the ordinary circumstances of life, in ordinary language, we recognize that the more loving one is, the more 'human' he is and the most loving are held up as examples to us all. It is literally that love makes man......human. And, the religious person, believing that God is Love, see divinity in such humanity. From our perspective, the most human among us are those who are the most loving, the most 'like God.'

                          Jesus is the man who is fully, completely human because he is the fullest embodiment, the fullest incarnation of Divinity, of Love. Thus the religious person can say, "in him, we see God; he and the Father are one; he is the very son of Love." Thus Jesus is fully human because he is fully divine; he is the fullness of Love, the fullness of God. We need look no further when we ask, "who is God, what is God."

                          Then from there we just have to address Trinity.
                          Last edited by thormas; 10-20-2020, 08:22 AM.

                          Comment



                          • Just to add to my last post (I ran out of editing time)

                            I use to wonder how one could put God and man together in one and as a little kid I had an image of stuffing one inside the other. Silly, I know. Then reading Spong, he had an interesting insight: God is a verb.

                            That means by loving, a human is 'doing' what God is: this is divinity and humanity in one. We become human to the same degree that we love. The only way for man to become truly Human is if he is truly 'divine' - or, if you will, if he is 'divining'....... loving.

                            Jesus was the First Born Son of Love and we, who follow, are to be the sons and daughters of the Father in his same Way.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                              It is hard to make the goal their acceptance of the doctrine, as a favor to them. Shuny, of course, fails when he simply states a starting point as his "final" argument against the developed doctrine. The argument against the Trinity is not just to reassert the starting point. The argument must find a more complete explanation of points found in scripture. I think it is also hard to convince someone of something he has rejected due to his confusion. Most important, I don't think the Trinity doctrine is the starting point for someone to become justified with God.
                              Christians believe in only one God, period.

                              My doctor is a Jew and he told me Jews do not believe Christians believe in three Gods because of the Trinity. He said an orthodox Jew may say that, but told me to stay away from them.

                              Comment


                              • [QUOTE=Tassman;n1197484][QUOTE=Christian3;n1196949]
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                The official doctrine is that Jesus was FULLY God and FULLY man, which is of course logical nonsense. .
                                That belief raises all sorts of questions. What died on the cross? A man? A god? Can a god be killed by humans?

                                If Jesus was both fully god and fully man how do we explain the "divinely inspired holy writ" of Luke 2.56? If Jesus was a perfect being fully incorporated into the Godhead, he did not need to increase in either stature or wisdom. The account in Luke must therefore be wrong.

                                Furthermore, at which times when Jesus was speaking was he flesh, imperfect humanity and at which times was he Christ, God the Son? And how did these mere humans establish when Jesus was speaking as "imperfect humanity" , and when Jesus was speaking as "Christ, God the Son"?

                                The subordinationists had a much stronger case and far more scripture to back it up.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Esther, 09-27-2020, 02:01 PM
                                57 responses
                                272 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 09-15-2020, 11:19 AM
                                49 responses
                                412 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Tassman
                                by Tassman
                                 
                                Started by shunyadragon, 09-09-2016, 03:27 PM
                                1,025 responses
                                54,115 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post thormas
                                by thormas
                                 
                                Started by showmeproof, 01-19-2014, 11:28 AM
                                91 responses
                                19,192 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X