Originally posted by seer
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is The Concept Of Human Dignity...
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"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
No it is a social construct dependent upon the definition of "dignity" within a particular society at a particular historical period.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Yes, a fictional social construct, merely a nice bed time story we tell ourselves.
The notion that there is "a transcendent link that is not dependent on wavering social norms" is merely an idea that, judging from the comments made pertaining to it in this thread, is premised upon one specific belief system and one particular concept of deity. Nothing more."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
If a social construct exists it cannot be a fiction. It may be premised on values that are no longer considered to be relevant or values that some individuals my consider to be irrelevancies but the social construct in, and of itself, is not a fiction.
The notion that there is "a transcendent link that is not dependent on wavering social norms" is merely an idea that, judging from the comments made pertaining to it in this thread, is premised upon one specific belief system and one particular concept of deity. Nothing more.Last edited by seer; 02-28-2021, 12:07 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
God's mind being the source of human dignity/worth doesn't make human dignity/worth "objectively true" either.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo change objective to absolute, or certain or universal or inviolate or inalienable. Different words - same end.
It fundamentally doesn't solve the problem of arbitrariness, because your choice to follow God's view rather than mine is arbitrary. God's view is just one more view among many. It's not philosophically special, or privileged etc. You don't seem to understand that."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Of course it is a fiction because it is not objectively true. It is make believe. Like pink unicorns.
You appear to believe that this objective truth may be found/explained by "God" but that is only your subjective theological opinion.
Originally posted by seer View Post
Except if I'm right humans really have a worth that is not dependent on fickle social norms.
Originally posted by seer View PostSo the Jewish child had inviolate value no matter what your people said or did.
You seem to forget that western anti-Semitism has its roots in Christianity and as such it was hardly unknown across all of "Christian" Europe [and the USA] in the early 20th century. The Nazi party played upon those underlying resentments and prejudices.
Nor were only Germans involved in the Holocaust. Deep rooted anti-Semitism existed within the Eastern nations and in Poland the town of Kielce [less than 500 km from Auschwitz] managed to have a pogrom in 1946.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI don't think this is a matter of words. It's a matter of the fact that the underlying concept of adding God doesn't actually help in the way you seem to think it does.
It fundamentally doesn't solve the problem of arbitrariness, because your choice to follow God's view rather than mine is arbitrary. God's view is just one more view among many. It's not philosophically special, or privileged etc. You don't seem to understand that.Last edited by seer; 03-01-2021, 07:17 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe social construct [as a concept] exists. What is "objectively true " when it comes to religious and/or moral beliefs?
You appear to believe that this objective truth may be found/explained by "God" but that is only your subjective theological opinion.
I do not know why you are referencing "your people", other than as an intentional germanophobic slur.
You seem to forget that western anti-Semitism has its roots in Christianity and as such it was hardly unknown across all of "Christian" Europe [and the USA] in the early 20th century. The Nazi party played upon those underlying resentments and prejudices.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
It is also my opinion that the laws of logic are universal.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe truth or falseness of God's existence, or the laws or logic, do not depend on my opinion. They are either true or not.
Originally posted by seer View Post
But it was your people that took it to the end that you did.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut that wasn't the point. If the Nazis deemed that the Jews had no human dignity then they did not have dignity.
Originally posted by seer View PostIf dignity is merely a social construct then the Nazis were logically justified.
The same attitude of racial superiority was exhibited by European colonial powers and of course within the USA. Look at how the Chinese were treated in nineteenth century America."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThat cannot be tested.
Concept/entities for which there is no evidence cannot be proven either way.
With a lot of willing collaborators. Do you really imagine the Gestapo could have rounded up all the Jews across occupied Europe without some help?
Premised on nearly two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism.
Insofar as Nazi ideology was concerned yes it was justified. Was it ethically correct is a different matter.
The same attitude of racial superiority was exhibited by European colonial powers and of course within the USA. Look at how the Chinese were treated in nineteenth century America.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Proven how? Define proof in a non-arbitrary.
Originally posted by seer View PostSo, the Germans were the driving force.
Originally posted by seer View PostTwo thousand years? And which teachings of Christ exactly were they following?
Originally posted by seer View PostIt was ethically correct to them - on what logical basis do you disagree?
Originally posted by seer View PostSo? If dignity is a social construct what is the big deal...
We are witnessing similar behaviours today where one group considers its religious and/or political beliefs or racial and/or cultural status is superior to that of other groups around it. This group often considers it has a right oppress and/or destroy those other groups who are different. [The brutality exhibited towards the Rohingya and the Yazidis comes to mind].
Look up Jane Elliott’s work on Brown Eyes Blue Eyes with her third graders."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThese concepts cannot be proven as in a mathematical theorem and in what specific sense are you employing the word "arbitrary"?
Christian anti-Semitism was the underlying motive that fuelled those attitudes found in all nations in Europe not just in Germany.
Read the Passion narratives, Acts, and John’s gospel.
The anti-Semitism that existed across the Christian world and which found its most virulent expression in Nazism was ultimately premised on the interpretation of certain passages found in the New Testament. Therefore according to Nazi ideology they were acting correctly. The Jew was the deicide, the outcast and the universal enemy, and should be destroyed.
Of course it is a social construct. However, a social construct pertaining to notions of human dignity may be used to justify one group’s belief that it is superior in race and/or culture to other groups. Pernicious although it undoubtedly was, that is how the Nazis viewed their ideology.
We are witnessing similar behaviours today where one group considers its religious and/or political beliefs or racial and/or cultural status is superior to that of other groups around it. This group often considers it has a right oppress and/or destroy those other groups who are different. [The brutality exhibited towards the Rohingya and the Yazidis comes to mind].
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAnd God's view, since he is God, would offer an absoluteness to the concept of human dignity that you can not offer."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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