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Is The Concept Of Human Dignity...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post

    My archaic religious agenda? Your own religion teaches the same thing!
    there are many differences, and of course, the reason you ar enot a Baha'i.
    No it does not in terms of rejecting science as you do.

    And again - how does the evolutionary process confer value or dignity on human beings. Why are humans valuable. If you don't give a direct answer please leave my thread.
    The answer is in the science of evolution, which you reject. This has been the subject of many threads, which you reject and ignore the science. There are literally thousands of peer reviewed articles that deal with the discoveries and research on the subject. Simply google 'evolution of intelligence moral and ethics.'

    and you can spend weeks studying the science.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      Your opinion OK. It is a matter of belief. I am a theist, a scientist, and believe in the harmony of science and religion. You apparently are not a theist.
      There's nothing about the natural state of humans via evolution that entails humans have any innate dignity. Theism or non-theism "don't enter into it". Dignity is not a natural property.
      “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

      -Ghandi (Disputed)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Then the Hutu says so too. So now it comes does to raw power - who gets to force their moral view on whom...
        Right. Haven't you noticed?

        But my opinion is either true or not - moral opinions are neither true or false. Your moral opinion is not more correct or valid than the Hutu's.
        No, but it's mine.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          there are many differences, and of course, the reason you ar enot a Baha'i.
          No it does not in terms of rejecting science as you do.
          Who is rejecting science? Science says nothing about human value. Does it?

          The answer is in the science of evolution, which you reject. This has been the subject of many threads, which you reject and ignore the science. There are literally thousands of peer reviewed articles that deal with the discoveries and research on the subject. Simply google 'evolution of intelligence moral and ethics.'

          and you can spend weeks studying the science.
          How does any of that endow humans with value or dignity?

          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post
            Right. Haven't you noticed?
            So again - might defines right...


            No, but it's mine.
            And why is your opinion correct?

            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

              There's nothing about the natural state of humans via evolution that entails humans have any innate dignity. Theism or non-theism "don't enter into it". Dignity is not a natural property.
              We disagree. Can you provide a reference for objective verifiable evidence that dignity is not a human property?
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                Can you provide a reference for objective verifiable evidence that dignity is not a human property?
                Can you provide a reference for objective verifiable evidence that dignity is a human property?

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So again - might defines right...
                  No, as you said, might determines who gets to force their moral view on whom.

                  And why is your opinion correct?
                  As you said, it's not correct or incorrect. But it's my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    We disagree. Can you provide a reference for objective verifiable evidence that dignity is not a human property?
                    BIology. We've mapped the human genome and dignity isn't among the base pairs. There's no dignity in the atoms and molecules that make up humans. There's nothing about the physicality of humans that entails dignity. There's nothing about merely having consciousness that entails dignity.

                    If you want to say dignity is a property of the soul, evolution doesn't deal with souls. Dignity, as a valuation, is inherently subjective. If you want to say dignity is a product of our sociality which in turn is a product of evolution, that s fine, but that's just makes dignity a useful social construction, not a natural and ontologically objective property.

                    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                    -Ghandi (Disputed)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                      BIology. We've mapped the human genome and dignity isn't among the base pairs. There's no dignity in the atoms and molecules that make up humans. There's nothing about the physicality of humans that entails dignity. There's nothing about merely having consciousness that entails dignity.

                      If you want to say dignity is a property of the soul, evolution doesn't deal with souls. Dignity, as a valuation, is inherently subjective. If you want to say dignity is a product of our sociality which in turn is a product of evolution, that s fine, but that's just makes dignity a useful social construction, not a natural and ontologically objective property.
                      Your comparing more mechanical nature of DNA and not the result in human behavior. ALL behavioral properties of human behavior are rooted in our genetics. None of the human attributes of behavior such as love, compassion, or intelligence can be seen looking at the mechanics of genetics.

                      The soul is separate and distinct from our physical nature that results in human behavior, intelligence, and the attributes of our nature that has survival value to preserve the social cohesiveness, sense of identity, and sense of community for the survival of the species.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-18-2021, 11:23 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        Your comparing more mechanical nature of DNA and not the result in human behavior. ALL behavioral properties of human behavior are rooted in our genetics.

                        The soul is separate and distinct from our physical nature that results in human behavior, intelligence, and the attributes of our nature that has survival value to preserve the social cohesiveness, sense of identity, and sense of community for the survival of the species.
                        The soul and the mind are separate concepts.

                        It doesn't seem that we're disagreeing that dignity is a construction rather than a natural and ontologically objective property.
                        “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                        -Ghandi (Disputed)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                          No, as you said, might determines who gets to force their moral view on whom.


                          As you said, it's not correct or incorrect. But it's my opinion. You are free to have your own opinion.
                          So what would be the logical justification for forcing your moral views on the Hutus for instance?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                            The soul and the mind are separate concepts.
                            True, the issue of human dignity is a product of our nature nature that evolved for the survival of the species. Though, Dignity cannot be discretely separated from our attributes of human behavior such as love, compassion, sence of identy and community. Dignity exists both in the personal and community level of human nature.

                            It doesn't seem that we're disagreeing that dignity is a construction rather than a natural and ontologically objective property. [/QUOTE]

                            This is not as an extreme statement as you made before. Yes, dignity is an abstract concept, but nonetheless it remains an integral part of our over all nature of our being human.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-18-2021, 11:34 AM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              So what would be the logical justification for forcing your moral views on the Hutus for instance?
                              The justification would be that I think it's the right thing to do. Unfortunately, I don't have the power to enforce that opinion.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                True, the issue of human dignity is a product of our nature nature that evolved for the survival of the species. Though, Dignity cannot be discretely separated from our attributes of human behavior such as love, compassion, since of ident and community. Dignity exists both in the personal and community level of human nature.

                                This is not as an extreme statement as you made before. Yes, dignity is an abstract concept, but nonetheless it remains an integral part of our over all nature of our being human.
                                I've not changed my position that dignity is not a natural property nor do humans have innate dignity. I have no issue with dignity as valuation being a part of human behaviour.
                                “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                                -Ghandi (Disputed)

                                Comment

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