Is The Concept Of Human Dignity...

[seer]

Disparate texts taken from various sections of the Hebrew bible are not really a convincing argument.

You mean a concept found in both Testaments?

Except for slaves and, when it came to voting rights, those who did own property.

That would not change their innate dignity. Various circumstances do not impinge in said value.

We agree on that.

[shunyadragon]

What is your point? Your religion teaches that human dignity is related to the fact that we are created by God. Evolution does not confer dignity on anything or anyone.

Your picking frog hairs of terminology. Morality, ethics, dignity, guilt, consciousness, and our human nature is conferred on humanity through evolution.

[Stoic]

So in the end might defines right?

Might determines what we can do. Right determines what we should do.

Yes from your point of view, which is not Gospel IMHO....

No problem.

Do you believe all human beings have dignity? If so why?

Yes, because I'm a human being, and because I've been raised to believe that human beings have dignity. Also because I don't think I'm so special that I can have dignity without everyone having dignity.

[Diogenes]

Your picking frog hairs of terminology. Morality, ethics, dignity, guilt, consciousness, and our human nature is conferred on humanity through evolution.

Dignity isn't conferred onto humans through evolution. That's just nonsense.

[Starlight]

You mean a concept found in both Testaments?

I tend to agree with Hypatia on this - it's possible for a person setting up a moral philosophy from the bible to use that concept, because it's arguably in the bible in places. But it's equally possible for a person setting up their moral philosophy from the bible to not use that concept, because there are plenty of other things in the bible.

The Bible certainly doesn't constantly teach universal human value:
- There are plenty of passages that are absolutely scathing about the enemies of Israel, calling for their utter destruction and slaughter and declaring their absolute moral worthlessness
- You yourself have claimed in this forum, in arguments with me, that there are passages in the bible that teach the absolute sinfulness and worthlessness of all humanity
- There is plenty of God-condoned slavery and mistreatment of others in the bible
- And most believe it implies that some humans will suffer eternally in hell, which a lot of people think would be morally unacceptable if in fact those humans had value

You personally happen to have a certain way you read and understand and believe the bible. But other Christians have different views about what it says and teaches. If you want to base your moral views on the bible, okay, but you've got to admit it's subjective in terms of what parts you focus on and base your views on, and what parts you ignore / downplay, and how you interpret the passages and ideas. So you don't escape subjectivity.

[shunyadragon]

Dignity isn't conferred onto humans through evolution. That's just nonsense.

Your opinion OK. It is a matter of belief. I am a theist, a scientist, and believe in the harmony of science and religion. You apparently are not a theist.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I tend to agree with Hypatia on this - it's possible for a person setting up a moral philosophy from the bible to use that concept, because it's arguably in the bible in places. But it's equally possible for a person setting up their moral philosophy from the bible to not use that concept, because there are plenty of other things in the bible.

The Bible certainly doesn't constantly teach universal human value:
- There are plenty of passages that are absolutely scathing about the enemies of Israel, calling for their utter destruction and slaughter and declaring their absolute moral worthlessness
- You yourself have claimed in this forum, in arguments with me, that there are passages in the bible that teach the absolute sinfulness and worthlessness of all humanity
- There is plenty of God-condoned slavery and mistreatment of others in the bible
- And most believe it implies that some humans will suffer eternally in hell, which a lot of people think would be morally unacceptable if in fact those humans had value

You personally happen to have a certain way you read and understand and believe the bible. But other Christians have different views about what it says and teaches. If you want to base your moral views on the bible, okay, but you've got to admit it's subjective in terms of what parts you focus on and base your views on, and what parts you ignore / downplay, and how you interpret the passages and ideas. So you don't escape subjectivity.

I agree with your comments and as you point out various other Bible texts have endorsed genocide, abuse and murder, and have been applied to justify the subjugation and oppression of different peoples. This is the issue with the Bible. One can find verses within it to justify just about anything.

[seer]

Your picking frog hairs of terminology. Morality, ethics, dignity, guilt, consciousness, and our human nature is conferred on humanity through evolution.

Nonsense, how does evolution confer dignity - exactly. What makes us valuable? More valuable than a common house fly for instance?

[seer]

Might determines what we can do. Right determines what we should do.

Whose "right?" Why are we more morally correct than the Hutus for instance? Because we say so?

Yes, because I'm a human being, and because I've been raised to believe that human beings have dignity. Also because I don't think I'm so special that I can have dignity without everyone having dignity.

Yes because you were raised in the largely Christian west. But what actually endows humans with dignity? Besides person or collective opinions with often vary?

[seer]

I tend to agree with Hypatia on this - it's possible for a person setting up a moral philosophy from the bible to use that concept, because it's arguably in the bible in places. But it's equally possible for a person setting up their moral philosophy from the bible to not use that concept, because there are plenty of other things in the bible.

The Bible certainly doesn't constantly teach universal human value:
- There are plenty of passages that are absolutely scathing about the enemies of Israel, calling for their utter destruction and slaughter and declaring their absolute moral worthlessness
- You yourself have claimed in this forum, in arguments with me, that there are passages in the bible that teach the absolute sinfulness and worthlessness of all humanity
- There is plenty of God-condoned slavery and mistreatment of others in the bible
- And most believe it implies that some humans will suffer eternally in hell, which a lot of people think would be morally unacceptable if in fact those humans had value

You personally happen to have a certain way you read and understand and believe the bible. But other Christians have different views about what it says and teaches. If you want to base your moral views on the bible, okay, but you've got to admit it's subjective in terms of what parts you focus on and base your views on, and what parts you ignore / downplay, and how you interpret the passages and ideas. So you don't escape subjectivity.

Again none of this changes the fact that all men bear the image of God. We may (and should) execute the child rapist, that does not however change the fact that he bears God's image, no matter how much the man marred that image. That image or value is not dependent on circumstances or position (slave or not) or on one's behavior (good or bad). That is the whole point.

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense, how does evolution confer dignity - exactly. What makes us valuable? More valuable than a common house fly for instance?

The objective verifiable evidence has demonstrated the evolution of of morals in ethics, maternal love, dignity, intelligence in mammals over millions of years, not house flies where there is not need for these attributes for their survival. The fossil and genetic evidence clearly demonstrates the gradual evolution of mammals beginning millions of years ago in the Premian and Jurassic of mammalian reproduction, maternal nurturing and communal bonding nature of mammals, which is the basis for our social nature and of course dignity.

It is a given you reject science and evolution based on your archaic religious agenda and not the contemporary knowledge of.science..

[Machinist]

Does Theologyweb have notifications when things gets figured out?

[seer]

The objective verifiable evidence has demonstrated the evolution of of morals in ethics, maternal love, dignity, intelligence in mammals over millions of years, not house flies where there is not need for these attributes for their survival. The fossil and genetic evidence clearly demonstrates the gradual evolution of mammals beginning millions of years ago in the Premian and Jurassic of mammalian reproduction, maternal nurturing and communal bonding nature of mammals, which is the basis for our social nature and of course dignity.

It is a given you reject science and evolution based on your archaic religious agenda and not the contemporary knowledge of.science..

My archaic religious agenda? Your own religion teaches the same thing! And again - how does the evolutionary process confer value or dignity on human beings. Why are humans valuable. If you don't give a direct answer please leave my thread.

[Stoic]

Whose "right?" Why are we more morally correct than the Hutus for instance? Because we say so?

Exactly.

Yes because you were raised in the largely Christian west. But what actually endows humans with dignity? Besides person or collective opinions with often vary?

Personal and collective opinions are what we've got.

Your personal opinion is that there is a transcendent source. Mine differs.

[seer]

Exactly.

Then the Hutu says so too. So now it comes does to raw power - who gets to force their moral view on whom...

Your personal opinion is that there is a transcendent source. Mine differs.

But my opinion is either true or not - moral opinions are neither true or false. Your moral opinion is not more correct or valid than the Hutu's.