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Is The Concept Of Human Dignity...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    So basically the idea of human dignity is a useful fiction.
    No it is a social construct dependent upon the definition of "dignity" within a particular society at a particular historical period.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      No it is a social construct dependent upon the definition of "dignity" within a particular society at a particular historical period.
      Yes, a fictional social construct, merely a nice bed time story we tell ourselves.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        Yes, a fictional social construct, merely a nice bed time story we tell ourselves.
        If a social construct exists it cannot be a fiction. It may be premised on values that are no longer considered to be relevant or values that some individuals my consider to be irrelevancies but the social construct in, and of itself, is not a fiction.

        The notion that there is "a transcendent link that is not dependent on wavering social norms" is merely an idea that, judging from the comments made pertaining to it in this thread, is premised upon one specific belief system and one particular concept of deity. Nothing more.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          If a social construct exists it cannot be a fiction. It may be premised on values that are no longer considered to be relevant or values that some individuals my consider to be irrelevancies but the social construct in, and of itself, is not a fiction.
          Of course it is a fiction because it is not objectively true. It is make believe. Like pink unicorns.

          The notion that there is "a transcendent link that is not dependent on wavering social norms" is merely an idea that, judging from the comments made pertaining to it in this thread, is premised upon one specific belief system and one particular concept of deity. Nothing more.
          Except if I'm right humans really have a worth that is not dependent on fickle social norms. So the Jewish child had inviolate value no matter what your people said or did.
          Last edited by seer; 02-28-2021, 12:07 PM.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            Of course it is a fiction because it is not objectively true. It is make believe.
            God's mind being the source of human dignity/worth doesn't make human dignity/worth "objectively true" either.
            “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

            -Ghandi (Disputed)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

              God's mind being the source of human dignity/worth doesn't make human dignity/worth "objectively true" either.
              So change objective to absolute, or certain or universal or inviolate or inalienable. Different words - same end.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                So change objective to absolute, or certain or universal or inviolate or inalienable. Different words - same end.
                I don't think this is a matter of words. It's a matter of the fact that the underlying concept of adding God doesn't actually help in the way you seem to think it does.

                It fundamentally doesn't solve the problem of arbitrariness, because your choice to follow God's view rather than mine is arbitrary. God's view is just one more view among many. It's not philosophically special, or privileged etc. You don't seem to understand that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Of course it is a fiction because it is not objectively true. It is make believe. Like pink unicorns.
                  The social construct [as a concept] exists. What is "objectively true " when it comes to religious and/or moral beliefs?

                  You appear to believe that this objective truth may be found/explained by "God" but that is only your subjective theological opinion.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  Except if I'm right humans really have a worth that is not dependent on fickle social norms.
                  That is your opinion which coincides with modern western values. Despite the earlier references to to Gregory of Nyssa I wonder how far he would have extended his "humanitarian" values to those he deemed heretics like the Jews, of whom he was not overly complimentary, or those pesky "pagans" who were still to be found at the end of the fourth century.

                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So the Jewish child had inviolate value no matter what your people said or did.
                  I do not know why you are referencing "your people", other than as an intentional germanophobic slur.

                  You seem to forget that western anti-Semitism has its roots in Christianity and as such it was hardly unknown across all of "Christian" Europe [and the USA] in the early 20th century. The Nazi party played upon those underlying resentments and prejudices.

                  Nor were only Germans involved in the Holocaust. Deep rooted anti-Semitism existed within the Eastern nations and in Poland the town of Kielce [less than 500 km from Auschwitz] managed to have a pogrom in 1946.

                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    I don't think this is a matter of words. It's a matter of the fact that the underlying concept of adding God doesn't actually help in the way you seem to think it does.

                    It fundamentally doesn't solve the problem of arbitrariness, because your choice to follow God's view rather than mine is arbitrary. God's view is just one more view among many. It's not philosophically special, or privileged etc. You don't seem to understand that.
                    No, I have reasons for believing in God, as do most theists do here. So it is not arbitrary. And why would anyone care if it is philosophically special? As far as I can tell philosophers are more at odds than Christians and atheists. There is no philosophically privileged position - unless you can name one. And God's view, since he is God, would offer an absoluteness to the concept of human dignity that you can not offer.
                    Last edited by seer; 03-01-2021, 07:17 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      The social construct [as a concept] exists. What is "objectively true " when it comes to religious and/or moral beliefs?

                      You appear to believe that this objective truth may be found/explained by "God" but that is only your subjective theological opinion.
                      It is also my opinion that the laws of logic are universal. The truth or falseness of God's existence, or the laws or logic, do not depend on my opinion. They are either true or not.


                      I do not know why you are referencing "your people", other than as an intentional germanophobic slur.

                      You seem to forget that western anti-Semitism has its roots in Christianity and as such it was hardly unknown across all of "Christian" Europe [and the USA] in the early 20th century. The Nazi party played upon those underlying resentments and prejudices.
                      But it was your people that took it to the end that you did. But that wasn't the point. If the Nazis deemed that the Jews had no human dignity then they did not have dignity. If dignity is merely a social construct then the Nazis were logically justified.

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post

                        It is also my opinion that the laws of logic are universal.
                        That cannot be tested.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        The truth or falseness of God's existence, or the laws or logic, do not depend on my opinion. They are either true or not.
                        Concept/entities for which there is no evidence cannot be proven either way.


                        Originally posted by seer View Post


                        But it was your people that took it to the end that you did.
                        With a lot of willing collaborators. Do you really imagine the Gestapo could have rounded up all the Jews across occupied Europe without some help?

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        But that wasn't the point. If the Nazis deemed that the Jews had no human dignity then they did not have dignity.
                        Premised on nearly two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        If dignity is merely a social construct then the Nazis were logically justified.
                        Insofar as Nazi ideology was concerned yes it was justified. Was it ethically correct is a different matter.

                        The same attitude of racial superiority was exhibited by European colonial powers and of course within the USA. Look at how the Chinese were treated in nineteenth century America.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          That cannot be tested.

                          Concept/entities for which there is no evidence cannot be proven either way.
                          Proven how? Define proof in a non-arbitrary.


                          With a lot of willing collaborators. Do you really imagine the Gestapo could have rounded up all the Jews across occupied Europe without some help?
                          So, the Germans were the driving force.

                          Premised on nearly two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism.
                          Two thousand years? And which teachings of Christ exactly were they following?

                          Insofar as Nazi ideology was concerned yes it was justified. Was it ethically correct is a different matter.
                          It was ethically correct to them - on what logical basis do you disagree? Since dignity is a social construct?

                          The same attitude of racial superiority was exhibited by European colonial powers and of course within the USA. Look at how the Chinese were treated in nineteenth century America.
                          So? If dignity is a social construct what is the big deal...

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Proven how? Define proof in a non-arbitrary.
                            These concepts cannot be proven as in a mathematical theorem and in what specific sense are you employing the word "arbitrary"?

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So, the Germans were the driving force.
                            Christian anti-Semitism was the underlying motive that fuelled those attitudes found in all nations in Europe not just in Germany.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Two thousand years? And which teachings of Christ exactly were they following?
                            Read the Passion narratives, Acts, and John’s gospel.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            It was ethically correct to them - on what logical basis do you disagree?
                            The anti-Semitism that existed across the Christian world and which found its most virulent expression in Nazism was ultimately premised on the interpretation of certain passages found in the New Testament. Therefore according to Nazi ideology they were acting correctly. The Jew was the deicide, the outcast and the universal enemy, and should be destroyed.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So? If dignity is a social construct what is the big deal...
                            Of course it is a social construct. However, a social construct pertaining to notions of human dignity may be used to justify one group’s belief that it is superior in race and/or culture to other groups. Pernicious although it undoubtedly was, that is how the Nazis viewed their ideology.


                            We are witnessing similar behaviours today where one group considers its religious and/or political beliefs or racial and/or cultural status is superior to that of other groups around it. This group often considers it has a right oppress and/or destroy those other groups who are different. [The brutality exhibited towards the Rohingya and the Yazidis comes to mind].

                            Look up Jane Elliott’s work on Brown Eyes Blue Eyes with her third graders.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              These concepts cannot be proven as in a mathematical theorem and in what specific sense are you employing the word "arbitrary"?
                              So if something can't be proven with the same exactness as mathematical theorem it can't be true or real? Wouldn't that throw out most historical claims?

                              Christian anti-Semitism was the underlying motive that fuelled those attitudes found in all nations in Europe not just in Germany.

                              Read the Passion narratives, Acts, and John’s gospel.
                              Yep, read them many times. Where does it say that we should harm or kill anyone? Just the opposite - we are to love even those who oppose us.

                              The anti-Semitism that existed across the Christian world and which found its most virulent expression in Nazism was ultimately premised on the interpretation of certain passages found in the New Testament. Therefore according to Nazi ideology they were acting correctly. The Jew was the deicide, the outcast and the universal enemy, and should be destroyed.
                              Again, where does the NT teach to destroy anyone?

                              Of course it is a social construct. However, a social construct pertaining to notions of human dignity may be used to justify one group’s belief that it is superior in race and/or culture to other groups. Pernicious although it undoubtedly was, that is how the Nazis viewed their ideology.

                              We are witnessing similar behaviours today where one group considers its religious and/or political beliefs or racial and/or cultural status is superior to that of other groups around it. This group often considers it has a right oppress and/or destroy those other groups who are different. [The brutality exhibited towards the Rohingya and the Yazidis comes to mind].
                              Again I will ask - why would your opinions on these matter be more correct or valid?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                And God's view, since he is God, would offer an absoluteness to the concept of human dignity that you can not offer.
                                No, he wouldn't. You seem to find this concept really hard to get, and seem to have (deliberately?) misunderstood my words in my previous post. God adds nothing. Having him say something is moral or not moral adds nothing whatsoever to the topic and is no more authoritative than my neighbor saying something is or isn't moral. You're trying to apply God-of-the-gaps to morality, but adding God doesn't achieve anything at all. Your moral system is absolutely as arbitrary and subjective as those you complain about.

                                Comment

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