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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Really Hypatia, what is the point of you?
    Once again you dodge the question.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Once again you dodge the question.
      No, I just can't believe you are really this dense:

      Abstract:

      existing as an idea, feeling, or quality, not as a material object:

      Truth and
      beauty are abstract concepts.
      Moral ideals are non material abstract concepts.
      Last edited by seer; 02-24-2021, 07:12 PM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Theology by its very definition, is a subjective method which is premised on the interpretation of words found in texts deemed to be sacred.

        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        All religions and their theologies are interpretive frameworks.
        We finally agree on something


        “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

        -Ghandi (Disputed)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          No, I just can't believe you are really this dense:
          You used the phrase "abstract moral terms". What is an abstract moral? And what are its "terms"?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

            We finally agree on something

            Not quite.

            You wrote: "All religions and their theologies are interpretive frameworks." I questioned that statement and you have yet to explain and/or defend it.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Not quite.

              You wrote: "All religions and their theologies are interpretive frameworks." I questioned that statement and you have yet to explain and/or defend it.
              As you said

              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              I would contend that they are attempts to explain human existence, origins, and purpose within the physical world,
              So we agree that theology is a subjective interpretation of religious works and religions are interpretive frameworks to explain human existence et al.

              I'm glad we can come to an agreement on something.
              “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

              -Ghandi (Disputed)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                So we agree that theology is a subjective interpretation of religious works
                You are mistaken if you think that.


                I wrote that "Theology by its very definition is a subjective method which is premised on the interpretation of words found in texts deemed to be sacred. [my emphasis].

                That is by no means the same as your comment that "theology is a subjective interpretation of religious works". It should be noted that "religious works" may [and often does] include texts which are not deemed to be sacred.

                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                and religions are interpretive frameworks to explain human existence et al.
                I have never written that I consider religions and theologies to be interpretive frameworks. You made the statement that "All religions and their theologies are interpretive frameworks." I am still waiting for you to defend/explain that comment.


                With regard to religions and theologies I wrote that "I would contend they are attempts to explain human existence, origins, and purpose within the physical world, in other words the basic triad of birth, copulation, and death." [my emphasis]




                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  You are mistaken if you think that.
                  I don't believe I am mistaken. I think you're just trying to find disagreement where there is none. That and just fastidious in general
                  “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                  -Ghandi (Disputed)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                    I don't believe I am mistaken.
                    I regret that you are. There is a marked distinction between what I wrote and the statements that you have made and upon which you consider we have reached agreement.


                    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                    I think you're just trying to find disagreement where there is none.
                    You are suggesting that I have written things which I have not.


                    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                    That and just fastidious in general
                    I would consider the word “precise” to be more apposite.


                    I remind you again that "religious works" may include texts that are not deemed to be sacred. Nor despite your attempt to suggest that we are in accord have I ever written that I consider religions and theologies to be interpretive frameworks. That statement was made by you when you wrote “All religions and their theologies are interpretive frameworks." I am still waiting for you to defend/explain that comment. However, I am beginning to suspect that, regardless of requests, you will continue to avoid doing so.

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • the Spirit is the non material aspect to us humans. I've heard that there is no evidence that consciousness even originates in the brain. That's going to be relevant downstream. For now, we are just talking about this non-material aspect of the human, the part that (i hope i'm stating this correctly), that can think, and abstract and ponder actions that have moral sentiments attached to them, and that can add and subtract and remember names and faces, and can reflect on the very notion and idea of "perfection" for instance, and this thing, this non-material aspect can can ponder memes for instance, and have a discussion about memes and infinity and zero and history. This part of the human...the spirit, from whence does it come?

                      Is it some emergent property from all the infinite and complex computations of the quantum universe we live in? I could go with that I suppose. Kinda neat.

                      I think the argument that Seer is making here is a good one, and I especially like when Stoic chimes in with fresh perspective.

                      Thus far, it seems to me that there is a reluctance to confess that yes, the logical implications that there being no God to be accountable to for our actions, is a free for all orgy-istic cult of doom.

                      I mean it really really should be, you know, just go and do what pleases you with no regard to anyone other than your self. Steal kill rob pillage, whatever it takes to have as much pleasure and experience in your life because after your dead your memories will infinitely vanish. Now that....is the logical implication of what SHOULD be the behaviour of anyone who is atheist, that is, if their actions and feelings were guided solely by continually analyzing logical axions and making sure that their actions are in alignment with these deductions. . Stoic however makes a good argument that humans simply are not guided so much by logic as they are emotion.



                      Comment


                      • From an atheistic perspective, I would have no rationale for anything of value. Any value that I project is equally meaningless. It comes from me, originates in me, and after i'm gone I vanish forever. These values that I created also vanish. Sure, they are passed down to others. But is that enough to have some rationale for value?

                        Comment


                        • If consciousness is an emergent property of a self existent Universe, then it has always existed in one form or another, emerging here in one form and here in another. There would would still be no "God" per se, unless of course you want to call the Universe itself by that name.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            You used the phrase "abstract moral terms". What is an abstract moral? And what are its "terms"?
                            Moral ideals are abstract by definition. That is my point.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I would consider the word “precise” to be more apposite.
                              If you say so.

                              I am still waiting for you to defend/explain that comment.
                              I wouldn't advise holding your breath.


                              However, I am beginning to suspect that, regardless of requests, you will continue to avoid doing so.

                              We both agree that theology is a matter of interpretation and we both agree religions are attempts to explain human existence et al. How the latter does not constitute an interpretive framework is beyond me. This is like I'm say "blue" and you're saying "azure".


                              Last edited by Diogenes; 02-25-2021, 09:51 AM.
                              “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

                              -Ghandi (Disputed)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post


                                We both agree that theology is a matter of interpretation and we both agree religions are attempts to explain human existence
                                On that we are in agreement.

                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                                How the latter does not constitute an interpretive framework is beyond me.
                                A more exact definition to describe "[a]ll religions and theologies" would be to define them as speculative systems for the interpretation of the cosmos, human existence within it, and the means of subsistence. [The latter probably being the earliest manifestation of “religious beliefs”.]

                                However, perhaps all that is too "fastidious" for you.



                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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