Originally posted by seer
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Absurdity of Morality Apart From God
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
You keep acting like the fact that the morality of slavery's a matter of opinion means that one can't have an opinion on the matter.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course you can have an opinion, but that opinion is no more valid or correct than the slaver.
Often with progressive atheists, they assume that past or more ancient moral beliefs are some how worse or wrong.
Like the idea that it was okay to torture people because they disagreed with the prevailing religion. Just seems wrong to me.
Or that we are moving towards some better ethical goals. Both assumptions are rationally unjustified.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I am going to take issue with that comment. It is highly possible that religious beliefs [as in beliefs in forces above and beyond human control] are linked to early humans and the need for survival and subsistence.
Nor do we have the slightest idea what the "morality" of our distant forebears might have been. Various early human clans may have practised behaviours that we now consider highly immoral.
However, these might have been deemed necessary for the survival of the group.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
You keep acting like slavery is immoral, when its moral category is only a matter of opinion. In other words your objection is meaningless.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
There is no “scientific racism” other than the pseudo-scientific attempts of the likes of Hitler or the KKK to justify discrimination based upon bogus concepts of racial hierarchy. Racism originated as tribalism, whereby human evolution (and that of all primates) began as small groups. This as opposed to the mass societies which developed in later eras and now dominate worldwide. But where sadly, prejudice and discrimination are still directed against those who are different.
The "fact" is that all of humanity is the "same" at the genetic/molecular level...yet human nature is more comfortable with (created/arbitrary) difference (tribalism) for social cohesion which is essential for cooperation and therefore survival.
...And tribalism requires a myth/story. It is the only way to create the identity that group cohesion requires. The reason that this myth is necessary is precisely because the FACT is that all humanity is similar/not different. It is probably this cognitive dissonance between fact and human nature and the need to reconcile this dissonance, in order to make sense of the world...that the creation of abstractions and myths become necessary survival mechanisms....?....
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Correlation =/= causation. If you want an actual "overtly religious nation", you'll have to go to the Middle East (sans Israel), Africa, and Asia.
And right after that verse:
Humans aren't very good at ideological constancy.
For the context, again:
The dynamic in the Bible isn't mere submission. It's much more complex and more spiritual than temporal.
But yeah, let's cherry-pick the Bible to support our position, just like the people we're complaining about.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by siam View Post
you point out an interesting cognitive dissonance....
The "fact" is that all of humanity is the "same" at the genetic/molecular level...yet human nature is more comfortable with (created/arbitrary) difference (tribalism) for social cohesion which is essential for cooperation and therefore survival.
...And tribalism requires a myth/story. It is the only way to create the identity that group cohesion requires. The reason that this myth is necessary is precisely because the FACT is that all humanity is similar/not different. It is probably this cognitive dissonance between fact and human nature and the need to reconcile this dissonance, in order to make sense of the world...that the creation of abstractions and myths become necessary survival mechanisms....?....
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
No doubt. Nevertheless, people and rules of acceptable behavior existed before gods or spiritual forces did.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostOne doesn’t have to go far back in human history to witness behaviors we now consider highly immoral. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at certain times in history.
However, to define morals/morality more precisely both derive from the cultural norms specific to a particular society. Of course it does not necessarily follow that every individual within that society [particularly at later periods of human history] necessarily agreed with those norms. We know from some Roman writers that there were concerns over the abandonment of children and abortion. Although the former has to be viewed within its historical context given that it is often considered that throughout classical antiquity it was always practised everywhere..
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIt is in my opinion. Otherwise I'd have a different opinion.
"Assume" isn't quite the right word. Let's just say that it's our opinion that (some) past moral beliefs are worse than the current moral beliefs that have replaced them.
Like the idea that it was okay to torture people because they disagreed with the prevailing religion. Just seems wrong to me.
If they were rationally justified, I'm not sure it would be fair to call them "opinions".
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Slavery has been “only a matter of opinion” by ALL societies including Christian ones.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostJust 'seems' wrong to you? But why?
Well if there are no universal moral truths then you have no standard to judge these things by - so I guess you can't make a rational case.
I can't even make a rational case for not wanting to be tortured. I just don't want to be tortured.
But not having an objective, purely rational standard does not mean I have no standard. And not being able to make a purely rational case does not mean I have no way to persuade others.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostPrimarily because of empathy for the people being tortured, and the thought that I might one day be one of them, and I'd really rather not be tortured.
Yeah, I can't make a rational case for empathy, it just is.
I can't even make a rational case for not wanting to be tortured. I just don't want to be tortured.
But not having an objective, purely rational standard does not mean I have no standard. And not being able to make a purely rational case does not mean I have no way to persuade others.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo it is all about you! : ) But if you could insure that you would not be one of the tortured - then....
And just because you don't torture wouldn't stop someone else from torturing you.
So it's all about you again....
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIt's hard to get most people to accept moral rules if some people are excepted from following them.
That's why punishing others for not complying with the rules is part of the rules.
Society is just made up of a bunch of individuals.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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