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Absurdity of Morality Apart From God

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    You keep acting like slavery is immoral, when its moral category is only a matter of opinion. In other words your objection is meaningless.
    You keep acting like the fact that the morality of slavery's a matter of opinion means that one can't have an opinion on the matter.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

      You keep acting like the fact that the morality of slavery's a matter of opinion means that one can't have an opinion on the matter.
      Of course you can have an opinion, but that opinion is no more valid or correct than the slaver. Often with progressive atheists, they assume that past or more ancient moral beliefs are some how worse or wrong. Or that we are moving towards some better ethical goals. Both assumptions are rationally unjustified.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Of course you can have an opinion, but that opinion is no more valid or correct than the slaver.
        It is in my opinion. Otherwise I'd have a different opinion.

        Often with progressive atheists, they assume that past or more ancient moral beliefs are some how worse or wrong.
        "Assume" isn't quite the right word. Let's just say that it's our opinion that (some) past moral beliefs are worse than the current moral beliefs that have replaced them.

        Like the idea that it was okay to torture people because they disagreed with the prevailing religion. Just seems wrong to me.

        Or that we are moving towards some better ethical goals. Both assumptions are rationally unjustified.
        If they were rationally justified, I'm not sure it would be fair to call them "opinions".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          I am going to take issue with that comment. It is highly possible that religious beliefs [as in beliefs in forces above and beyond human control] are linked to early humans and the need for survival and subsistence.
          No doubt. Nevertheless, people and rules of acceptable behavior existed before gods or spiritual forces did.

          Nor do we have the slightest idea what the "morality" of our distant forebears might have been. Various early human clans may have practised behaviours that we now consider highly immoral.

          However, these might have been deemed necessary for the survival of the group.
          One doesn’t have to go far back in human history to witness behaviors we now consider highly immoral. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at certain times in history.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post

            You keep acting like slavery is immoral, when its moral category is only a matter of opinion. In other words your objection is meaningless.
            Slavery has been “only a matter of opinion” by ALL societies including Christian ones.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              There is no “scientific racism” other than the pseudo-scientific attempts of the likes of Hitler or the KKK to justify discrimination based upon bogus concepts of racial hierarchy. Racism originated as tribalism, whereby human evolution (and that of all primates) began as small groups. This as opposed to the mass societies which developed in later eras and now dominate worldwide. But where sadly, prejudice and discrimination are still directed against those who are different.
              you point out an interesting cognitive dissonance....

              The "fact" is that all of humanity is the "same" at the genetic/molecular level...yet human nature is more comfortable with (created/arbitrary) difference (tribalism) for social cohesion which is essential for cooperation and therefore survival.
              ...And tribalism requires a myth/story. It is the only way to create the identity that group cohesion requires. The reason that this myth is necessary is precisely because the FACT is that all humanity is similar/not different. It is probably this cognitive dissonance between fact and human nature and the need to reconcile this dissonance, in order to make sense of the world...that the creation of abstractions and myths become necessary survival mechanisms....?....

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post


                Correlation =/= causation. If you want an actual "overtly religious nation", you'll have to go to the Middle East (sans Israel), Africa, and Asia.
                But certainly “correlation” if not “causation” as such. One notes that the overtly religious Middle East, as per the overtly religious USA, also has a poor record when it comes to social justice and equity

                And right after that verse:





                Humans aren't very good at ideological constancy.





                For the context, again:




                The dynamic in the Bible isn't mere submission. It's much more complex and more spiritual than temporal.

                But yeah, let's cherry-pick the Bible to support our position, just like the people we're complaining about.
                People of faith have historically read the bible so that virtually any perspective on current issues will find support, whilst any negative passages are reinterpreted to fit the desired conclusion. Much of the bible can be made to reinforce what the society of the day believes at any given point in time, whether the subjugation of women or the Christian ownership of slaves -which was justified with biblical backing for many centuries.




                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by siam View Post

                  you point out an interesting cognitive dissonance....

                  The "fact" is that all of humanity is the "same" at the genetic/molecular level...yet human nature is more comfortable with (created/arbitrary) difference (tribalism) for social cohesion which is essential for cooperation and therefore survival.
                  ...And tribalism requires a myth/story. It is the only way to create the identity that group cohesion requires. The reason that this myth is necessary is precisely because the FACT is that all humanity is similar/not different. It is probably this cognitive dissonance between fact and human nature and the need to reconcile this dissonance, in order to make sense of the world...that the creation of abstractions and myths become necessary survival mechanisms....?....
                  Not really, siam. Tribal behavior among humans is no different in principle to tribal or group behavior among other social species such as chimpanzees, with whom we are closely related.. Its a product of the evolution of the necessary social behavior to survive as a cooperative intelligent social animals.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    No doubt. Nevertheless, people and rules of acceptable behavior existed before gods or spiritual forces did.
                    It is not as straightforward as that. We do not know what our early forebears thought and believed, or how they constructed their clans and groups. They have left us no written records. However, we can surmise that religious beliefs of some sort would probably have played an important part in the need to subsist and survive.


                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    One doesn’t have to go far back in human history to witness behaviors we now consider highly immoral. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at certain times in history.
                    I take your point that behaviours in previous periods in history [and presently in some parts of the world] are considered barbaric by someone from a secular and advanced Western society.

                    However, to define morals/morality more precisely both derive from the cultural norms specific to a particular society. Of course it does not necessarily follow that every individual within that society [particularly at later periods of human history] necessarily agreed with those norms. We know from some Roman writers that there were concerns over the abandonment of children and abortion. Although the former has to be viewed within its historical context given that it is often considered that throughout classical antiquity it was always practised everywhere..

                    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                      It is in my opinion. Otherwise I'd have a different opinion.
                      No problem.

                      "Assume" isn't quite the right word. Let's just say that it's our opinion that (some) past moral beliefs are worse than the current moral beliefs that have replaced them.

                      Like the idea that it was okay to torture people because they disagreed with the prevailing religion. Just seems wrong to me.
                      Just 'seems' wrong to you? But why?

                      If they were rationally justified, I'm not sure it would be fair to call them "opinions".
                      Well if there are no universal moral truths then you have no standard to judge these things by - so I guess you can't make a rational case.

                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        Slavery has been “only a matter of opinion” by ALL societies including Christian ones.
                        Again, not the point, which was - why is your objection to slavery meaningful, or more correct than the opinion of the slaver?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Just 'seems' wrong to you? But why?
                          Primarily because of empathy for the people being tortured, and the thought that I might one day be one of them, and I'd really rather not be tortured.

                          Well if there are no universal moral truths then you have no standard to judge these things by - so I guess you can't make a rational case.
                          Yeah, I can't make a rational case for empathy, it just is.

                          I can't even make a rational case for not wanting to be tortured. I just don't want to be tortured.

                          But not having an objective, purely rational standard does not mean I have no standard. And not being able to make a purely rational case does not mean I have no way to persuade others.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                            Primarily because of empathy for the people being tortured, and the thought that I might one day be one of them, and I'd really rather not be tortured.
                            So it is all about you! : ) But if you could insure that you would not be one of the tortured - then.... And just because you don't torture wouldn't stop someone else from torturing you.


                            Yeah, I can't make a rational case for empathy, it just is.

                            I can't even make a rational case for not wanting to be tortured. I just don't want to be tortured.
                            So it's all about you again....


                            But not having an objective, purely rational standard does not mean I have no standard. And not being able to make a purely rational case does not mean I have no way to persuade others.
                            True...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              So it is all about you! : ) But if you could insure that you would not be one of the tortured - then....
                              It's hard to get most people to accept moral rules if some people are excepted from following them.

                              And just because you don't torture wouldn't stop someone else from torturing you.
                              That's why punishing others for not complying with the rules is part of the rules.

                              So it's all about you again....
                              Society is just made up of a bunch of individuals.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                                It's hard to get most people to accept moral rules if some people are excepted from following them.
                                The point is, just because you don't torture doesn't prevent someone from torturing you. So I don't know if that is necessarily a good reason.


                                That's why punishing others for not complying with the rules is part of the rules.


                                Society is just made up of a bunch of individuals.
                                Yet, if you are in power, torturing, if you do it, would be perfectly acceptable.

                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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