Existence Apart From God....

[Stoic]

So the child's value is largely dependent on whether the mother wants to keep it or not. Like the value of Jewish children was dependent on whether the Nazis wanted them or not.

I see a big difference between whether the mother wants to keep it and whether someone else wants her to keep it.

[Stoic]

In the case of Down Syndrome, there's no medical emergency for it a time of diagnosis, primary diagnosis methods carry into the 2nd Trimester, foeti with Down syndrome and other non-life threatening illnesses have have high abortion rates. To note, cfDNA testing seems to be on the cusp of the 2nd Trimester but is relatively new. It's modern eugenics.

As the father of an adult with Down Syndrome, I am a little ambivalent about abortions for it. My own son will never be able to live independently, and has a lot of health problems, which end up being paid for by the government. I believe this is the case for most people with DS.

If abortion is not allowed for DS, then I suspect most people who would have had an abortion will instead end up handing their child over to the state. That's an awful lot of people who will be supported by the state for their entire lives, along with enormous medical bills. Even for a country as rich as the US, that seems like a heavy burden. But if we want to take it on, that's fine by me.

[Diogenes]

As the father of an adult with Down Syndrome, I am a little ambivalent about abortions for it. My own son will never be able to live independently, and has a lot of health problems, which end up being paid for by the government. I believe this is the case for most people with DS.

If abortion is not allowed for DS, then I suspect most people who would have had an abortion will instead end up handing their child over to the state. That's an awful lot of people who will be supported by the state for their entire lives, along with enormous medical bills. Even for a country as rich as the US, that seems like a heavy burden. But if we want to take it on, that's fine by me.

I would agree that, if the State forces the pregnancy for something like Down's et al where the cognitive and physical impairment can be quite severe, the State would incur responsibility. It's a depressing utilitarian calculus.

[Tassman]

Great! I'm an 'atheist' too, then, since I don't accept any of the fictional deities either.

Great. Glad to hear it.

[Tassman]

First of all, you beg the question that supernatural beliefs are "unevidenced".

Oh. You have evidence of non-natural entities or occurrences existing? Pray tell.

Secondly, where else can life's meaning come from if not from something that exists beyond ourselves?

…and this meaning “beyond ourselves” is god in your opinion? But there's no evidence of any of the gods having existed outside of the minds of our species. We created them in our own image having our own moral attributes .

If atheism is true then we are nothing more than the accidental byproduct of random natural forces with no substance or value beyond anything else that has happened to come into existence through those same random forces, like a tree, or a rock, or a microbe.

Our “meaning” demonstrably does not come from “beyond ourselves? ALL living creatures have meaning according to how they have evolved. WE derive our meaning via our evolved instincts of attachment and bonding with others to form loving relationships. We are a social species and meaning comes from living as we have evolved to live as members of a community.

There is no intent behind our existence, no purpose that we are obligated to fulfill. Nothing we choose to do is inherently right or wrong.

Our notions of “right or wrong” derive from the society in which we live. It is a consequence of biology and natural selection - not something imposed from on high by the very deity we ourselves created.

We simply exist until we don't and are entirely forgotten as the universe moves on without us.

Diddum’s.

[Starlight]

Great! I'm an 'atheist' too, then, since I don't accept any of the fictional deities either.

“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.” - Richard Dawkins.

[Machinist]

There is no telling what I would do in this world if I knew and was certain there were no consequences. I don't dwell on any hypotheticals, but knowing myself some, at least, I wonder where my instincts, my mind, my heart would take me? I know there are consequences though, jail, prison for instance., and I wonder to what extent does that and that alone prevent me from say, robbing a bank.

[seer]

There is no telling what I would do in this world if I knew and was certain there were no consequences. I don't dwell on any hypotheticals, but knowing myself some, at least, I wonder where my instincts, my mind, my heart would take me? I know there are consequences though, jail, prison for instance., and I wonder to what extent does that and that alone prevent me from say, robbing a bank.

At least you are honest, we tend to forget that the everyday movers of the Holocaust were once rather normal citizens.

[Diogenes]

“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.” - Richard Dawkins.

Richard Dawkins has more wind in him than all bagpipes in Scotland.

[Starlight]

Richard Dawkins has more wind in him than all bagpipes in Scotland.

He says enough good stuff that I'll forgive him that.

[siam]

At least you are honest, we tend to forget that the everyday movers of the Holocaust were once rather normal citizens.

There might be a difference between doing "wrong" that is illegal and doing "wrong" (or apathy towards a "wrong") that is legal? Likely, many Germans would have excused their behavior as "Patriotic"?

[siam]

There is no telling what I would do in this world if I knew and was certain there were no consequences. I don't dwell on any hypotheticals, but knowing myself some, at least, I wonder where my instincts, my mind, my heart would take me? I know there are consequences though, jail, prison for instance., and I wonder to what extent does that and that alone prevent me from say, robbing a bank.

...then there is the mental effort of planning/strategy for the heist, the stress/anxiety of organizing and taking action....etc....some people might get off on the adrenaline rush of it---for the avg person, it might be too much bother for the risk?

[siam]

As the father of an adult with Down Syndrome, I am a little ambivalent about abortions for it. My own son will never be able to live independently, and has a lot of health problems, which end up being paid for by the government. I believe this is the case for most people with DS.

If abortion is not allowed for DS, then I suspect most people who would have had an abortion will instead end up handing their child over to the state. That's an awful lot of people who will be supported by the state for their entire lives, along with enormous medical bills. Even for a country as rich as the US, that seems like a heavy burden. But if we want to take it on, that's fine by me.

I too have a special nephew. Those of us who have "everything" might take it for granted but when we meet those with special needs, we can learn to be grateful and this in turn makes us better human beings---more compassionate and caring. People with special needs are our blessings and our teachers and it would indicate an uncaring and hard-hearted society that fails to value them.
Therefore, what we need are not guidelines on abortion but on socio-economic-political organization that would place a high value on special needs people for the benefit of the whole society and humanity in general....?....

[Dan Zebiri]

Down's syndrome, etc - in many islamic and muslim societies who follow the koran conservatively will take that to be "God's will" that was predetermined and should not be resisted. Isn't that why suicide and abortion are crimes in sharia law.

[Diogenes]

The question for the atheist is, rationally speaking, why should you care about the consequences of what you do today when nobody will be alive to remember it tomorrow? Can you come up with answer that doesn't depend on an appeal to emotion?

On the converse, assuming nihilism, there would be no motivation to not care about the consequences.

If you want a "rational reason", we'd probably have to start another thread on if and how normativity and rationality are connected. Whether or not socio/psychopaths or say Caligula are rational. We'd be getting into the ideal-observer and constructivist views on morality.

From the Christian perspective, we could get into the impact of eschatology and views of God's sovereignty could have on anthropogenic global warming denial and just a sort of Christian fatalism in general. The rabbit holes are certainly interesting.

Overall though, the nihilist is going to find some issues as nihilism is motivationally inert. Even suicide becomes devalued under nihilism. There's nothing to say the atheist can't find something to do while they await their execution, so to speak.