Thoughts about John BarZebedee

[eider]

Thoughts about John BarZebedee

Recently I have been thinking about and writing about the disciple John. I recently had a strong discussion about him which left his name in mind, and then yesterday whilst seeking info about the Baptist I 'clicked' on a Wiki article and there in front of me was an ancient artist's impression of the disciple, a white European male with remarkable complexion, curling reddy-brown hair, staring skywards towards his heaven with a meek and mild expression. And not far beneath I was told Born Bethsaida, Galliee, Roman Empire 6AD.

I see him rather differently.

And this is my idea about and around disciple John. Please feel free to offer your own ideas.

And so I'll start with John's Father, because that might help......... I don't even know Zebedee's full name... he is described as a boat owner with hired hands, with a wife called Salome and two sons. Many might think that to be the list. But those few descriptions plus a description of something that John did can enlarge the picture about Zebedee somewhat.

A boat owner with hired hands.... Zebedee must have been what folks around here call 'streetwise'.... I'll call him 'Lakewise', a man who could make and keep friends but who could also be as hard as nails. He was a survivor in the midst of a Patronage system following Roman rules and run by a ruthless Client Tetrarch who not only ruled the Galilee but also Perea, another vast province to the South. Herod Antipas was separate in power and authority from and above the Levite-Priesthood and Sanhedrin Court, if the Sanhedrin was a quill then Antipas was a sharp sword.

Somehow Zebedee owned and ran a fishing boat within a system so loaded with tolls and taxes, so filled with corruption and greed, and yet he survived... I just wonder at him.
The Romans let Antipas get on with running his provinces, apart from a few senior observers or officials (possibly based at Tiberius?) you wouldn't have seen Romans or Roman troops marching around Galilee because Antipas had his own staff and troops etc.

Boat owners would have paid a Lake Toll just for the privilege of floating around on it. They would pay for the right to work nets. They paid for their crew, for flax to make sails, ropes and nets, timber for spars, oars, repairs etc, stone anchors and a mass of other equipment that a fishing boat needed. He would need to hand over a % value for every fish that he caught and landed. And that wasn't the end of the 'costs' list. The Lake Publicans were a greedy, tough, hard nosed bunch of corrupted nasties who themselves were bullied by the Lake's Tax/Toll collection officials.... they may well have been Levites because no local men would have been contracted to control and fleece local men. All of a sudden John's Dad looks like some hardened guy, for sure.

And I almost 'know' that he had scams. Taxed and tolled boatmen have their ways everywhere around the world. The boatmen around where I live were just as oppressed in the distant past, so they could earn more with 'other work'. When I look at pictures of the ancient boat found in Galilee lake it even looks similar to the beach boats from here...... the nets I used as a youth were cotton and so I know about the care and maintenance flax nets required, and I know how a favourite net can be destroyed in minutes if a very large and unexpected fish gets trapped within it. A terrifying experience as well. What did Zebedee do with the huge cat fish that his men caught be accident? I once had a porpoise swim in to my herring nets....... it survived but I nearly didn't. Never forgotten. More about this stuff later, I expect.


And I think he was a brilliant husband. Why? Well the gospels tell me that he let his wife have quite a lot of freedom in a world where women could be very oppressed and held down. Zebedee's wife, Salome, was not only quite free for movement and mind, she must have had house servants because somebody needed to look after the place if she wanted to travel. And she had guts...... for sure she did. And she was devoted to her boys. It was Salome who went to Jesus before that last week to tell him that she would expect her boys to hold high positions in any kingdom that he founded. It was Salome who in the most dark and dreadful circumstances was right there with Magdalene, and not afraid to witness the execution. And it was she with Magdalene (and others) who helped to bring the Body of Jesus to place of burial, looked down upon by Roman soldiers. I know that the decurio Joseph was present as well, but... Yes, Salome had guts.

I've breezed over John's Parents........ could anyone offer more, please?

And what of their youngest (surviving?) son? Next post.

[rogue06]

Thoughts about John BarZebedee

Recently I have been thinking about and writing about the disciple John. I recently had a strong discussion about him which left his name in mind, and then yesterday whilst seeking info about the Baptist I 'clicked' on a Wiki article and there in front of me was an ancient artist's impression of the disciple, a white European male with remarkable complexion, curling reddy-brown hair, staring skywards towards his heaven with a meek and mild expression. And not far beneath I was told Born Bethsaida, Galliee, Roman Empire 6AD.

I see him rather differently.

Not wishing to go off track but it is rather common for cultures and societies to depict people as looking like them. Just like you see all those images of a Jesus with light brown or blondish hair, blue eyes and a pale complexion from Medieval and Renaissance Europe you find similar depictions in other parts of the world.

For instance in Asia you will find Jesus depicted thusly:

chinese_jesusb.jpg7a7cdd5a79ba03752e3c3fea4c2cd296.jpg41h7UU4.jpg

And I've seen Jesus depicted by black artist sporting an afro and dreadlocks.

[eider]

Not wishing to go off track but it is rather common for cultures and societies to depict people as looking like them. Just like you see all those images of a Jesus with light brown or blondish hair, blue eyes and a pale complexion from Medieval and Renaissance Europe you find similar depictions in other parts of the world.

For instance in Asia you will find Jesus depicted thusly:

chinese_jesusb.jpg7a7cdd5a79ba03752e3c3fea4c2cd296.jpg41h7UU4.jpg

And I've seen Jesus depicted by black artist sporting an afro and dreadlocks.

But I don't see Jesus like a European at all. And I don't think he wa born in Bethsaida. You will see that I wrote that:

I see him rather differently.

Do you see that?

[Machinist]

What is the question here?

[eider]

What is the question here?

What are your thoughts about disciple John?

[Faber]

Nobody with any sense would doubt that John, the disciple and apostle, was the author of the Gospel that bears his name. Although many authors tend to speak of themselves in the third person when they are a part of the narrative (Flavius Josephus being a prime example), John tends to avoid naming himself. He speaks of Peter, Andrew, James, and others, but leaves himself, one of the two prominent disciples, out of the mix, instead mentioning the "disciple whom Jesus loved", among others.

One thing interesting is John 18:15, "Now Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he also went with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest." Assuming this was also John, how would the high priest know him? I'm sure his picture wasn't hanging in any post offices.

And John clearly avoids making any connection between the Last Supper and a Passover seder, and suggests that it was actually before the Passover as observed by the Sanhedrin.

[eider]

Nobody with any sense would doubt that John, the disciple and apostle, was the author of the Gospel that bears his name. Although many authors tend to speak of themselves in the third person when they are a part of the narrative (Flavius Josephus being a prime example), John tends to avoid naming himself. He speaks of Peter, Andrew, James, and others, but leaves himself, one of the two prominent disciples, out of the mix, instead mentioning the "disciple whom Jesus loved", among others.

One thing interesting is John 18:15, "Now Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he also went with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest." Assuming this was also John, how would the high priest know him? I'm sure his picture wasn't hanging in any post offices.

And John clearly avoids making any connection between the Last Supper and a Passover seder, and suggests that it was actually before the Passover as observed by the Sanhedrin.

Thank you for your points, above.
I will arrive at the gospel of John tomorrow..... although it won't be able to mirror your own views.

[eider]

Thoughts about John BarZebedee 2
The first sight I have of John he is working upon nets with his older brother James. I don't know exactly where he was born, nor exactly when. I have read that he was born in Bethsaida which back then was in Gaulanitus and not Galilee as shown in that wiki article, but in any case Zebedee and Salome would have lived near to that boat, so Capernaum is as good a guess as any other.

So the two brothers were in their father's boat.... and although Luke tells us that John and James were working with Cephas and Andrew when Jesus first approached them, I believe that John worked with his Father.
Some very hardened fathers can extend much freedom to their sons, and the fact that John and his brother could just drop everything and leave to go their own way does show me that John was just such a free spirit. But as already shown he received much support and protection from his Mother and this could have produced in him the strong, determined, hardened and confrontational youth that he surely was.

No sooner had John followed Jesus than he had to witness an uproar at a meeting, amazing healings, commotion in and around Cephas's mother's home and then an excursion through other Galilean towns where no doubt many similar incidents occured. If John had been in the slightest bit timid he could have quit, but not he. It wasn't much later on that Jesus gave John and brother James their nickname Baroanerge, or 'sons of thunder'. Jesus often made speech to crowds on shore and although some scholars have insisted that thousands of people could not have heard a man's lone voice I for one know that they are wrong about that. Over still water fishermen know to speak in very quiet voices if their conversation is secret. And maybe both John and James had watermen's tremendous voices to repeat Jesus if there was any kind of breeze?

But there is another possibility..... an Alaskan researcher known only by avatar has proposed that the Aramaic for thunder looks alike to 'tumult' or 'uproar' and she thinks that the brothers nickname could have been 'sons of violence'. John is shown to have been a much favoured tough and aggressive young man, easily shown by the following reports:-

in Mark 5:37 Jesus favours John (and others) to accompany him in to a household amid tumult, in Mark 9:2 John is chosen with Cephas and brother James to accompany Jesus up the mountain (possibly Horeb?) to witness the most astounding scene of the whole mission, in 9:38 John explains to Jesus how saw a false prophet pretending to work in Jesus's name and he had confronted the man 'on the spot'. No timid man was John. In Mark 10:35 John and brother offered to do anything that Jesus wanted, and pushing for senior position at the end, although Matthew does mentioned that it was John's mother Salome who did the talking. I think the whole family were tough folks.

Luke 22:8 tells that it was John and Cephas alone whom were trusted to go and prepare the venue for the last meal that the disciples would have with Jesus. John was as trusted a follower as Cephas in my opinion.
And finally, in that last week of the mission John was there throughout, during the first day when they went to look around at everything in the Temple, probably preparing for what they needed to do; on day two I have no doubt that John would have been at the very front of the turmoil as they trashed the sales and exchange areas and then picketed the Temple Courts. On the third day they were back there and certainly picketing while Jesus confronted the Temple authorities.

I think that John was a tough, direct, hardened young man. No meek and mild character was he.

Tomorrow?
The Gospel of John, and anything that it says (or omits) about disciple John.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Nobody with any sense would doubt that John, the disciple and apostle, was the author of the Gospel that bears his name.

On what historical and attested evidence is that remark based?

[Machinist]

The awkward double ending of the Gospel of John comes to mind here.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The awkward double ending of the Gospel of John comes to mind here.

Someone added another chapter at a later date. People enjoy a good story and wanted some more and so we are given a nice little tale about Jesus getting together with his disciples and cooking them a barbie on the beach.

[eider]

Thoughts about John

The Gospel of John.

Any search in G-John for the John BarZebedee described in the other gospels ended in failure for me. I could not find him, save for one indirect mention.

I searched for mention of one of the most amazing experiences in John's life, that of being chosen to witness the Transfiguation with brother and Cephas. But there was nothing about it.

No mention of how he met Jesus, nor any mention (save the indirect one far below) of his brother, nor mentions of the false prophet that he confronted... and that surprises me. Further to that, Apostle John clearly did have a bundle of very valuable reports about Jesus and the mission, but he had no idea where to place these in any true timeline of events. Jesus is trashing the Temple sales and exchange area in the first few days of his mission rather than in the last.

His account of the day of his trial and execution is a full 24 hours later than in other gospels.
And so it went on..... John did none of the things that the gospels report that the group did together on days 1, 2 and 3 of the last week in Jerusalem, Jesus found his own colt to ride in to Jerusalem with no help from John or the others. etc etc The mission was three times longer than the year described in G-Mark during which Jesus journeyed to and from the Temple several times instead of making just one three day tour.

John makes no mentions of the memorable casting out of demons that he witnessed Jesus accomplish, and other miracles as described in other gospels, almost as if these acts were beneath Jesus. In G-John John witnesses Jesus bring a dead man back to life which the other gospel writers did not report.

And so I could not build any more upon the person of John BarZebedee from Apostle John's account.
I counted six accounts where a much loved disciple was with or near Jesus, and every time I read these descriptions I thought of another disciple rather than John. I'm not alone in this, I suspect.

Here are those references for you to read yourself, but first please let me say that John was obviously very proud of Salome his mother, but in G-John he failed to mention her presence at the execution or elsewhere, and my very last feeling was about the mention of Mother Mary, the loved disciple and others standing by the cross and close enough to speak with Jesus. Roman soldiers supervised such executions, and they would have kicked and beaten back or away any Jewish working people who came close :-

{13:23} Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom ..........

{19:25} Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. {19:26} When Jesus therefore saw his
mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved........

{20:2} Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved.....
{21:2} There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the [sons] of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.....

{21:7} Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter...............

{21:20} Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper................

And so, of John BarZebedee, I found nothing. Maybe you can do better than me?
Certainly I don't believe that Apostle John was Disciple John.

[shunyadragon]

Most scholars do not consider the Apostle John is the author of the Gospel. It is now considered written after 50 AD, and likely originally an anonymous author.

[Faber]

That there were two separate incidents of the cleansing of the temple is not surprising. Those were the Bazaars of Annas, and were there every year, up until the Jewish War. They were referred to as the Bazaars of Annas. They were usually set up in the provinces on the 15th day of Adar (about a month before Passover), and in the court of the gentiles in the temple mount on 25 Adar. It was a money-making scam by Annas and his family. Not only could they declare peoples' sacrificial lambs blemished, requiring them to buy another lamb, but they demanded that the normal shekel be exchanged for the Tyrian shekel. which had a purer silver content.

As for the trial of Jesus, it is unfortunate that many scholars are ignorant of the Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin, which set standards for trials, especially in capital cases. It was mandatory that they take place in two days, the sentence being declared on the second day so that decisions were not made in the heat of passion. And passing Jesus from Pilate to Herod, than back to Pialate, no doubt took at least a whole day. The time from the arrest of Jesus to His execution could have been three full days, pushing the Last Supper as far back as the Tuesday after sunset, prior to the official Friday night Passover seder of AD 30. Which would not be surprising. Even the Essenes celebrated the Passover seder on Tuesday night every year, judging by the Jubilee calendar, which they appeared to have been following. It wouldn't be surprising that, due to the huge number of people that came to Jerusalem at the time, that people would hold their seders on other days, sidestepping the requirements of the priests.

One other thing: John was probably aware of the other Gospels, at least Mark's. There was no need of him to repeat what they had already reported (except the feeding of the five thousand, and the unfortunate events that followed that), and probably wanted to add a few details that they missed.

[eider]

Most scholars do not consider the Apostle John is the author of the Gospel. It is now considered written after 50 AD, and likely originally an anonymous author.

Thank you for your post.
And what do you think?
Do you separate Apostle John from Disciple John as well?