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That coin.... which they passed to Jesus!

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  • That coin.... which they passed to Jesus!

    I've often wondered about that coin.

    Here are the accounts from the KJV Bible.
    If anybody knows about the earliest copy of G-Mark, its language and its best translation in to English then that would be most helpful.

    Here we go:-

    MATTHEW
    {22:17} Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    {22:18} But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?
    {22:19} Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    {22:20} And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?
    {22:21} They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things
    which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
    {22:22} When they had heard [these words,] they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

    MARK
    {12:14} And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
    {12:15} Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it. ]
    {12:16} And they brought [it.] And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s.
    {12:17} And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

    LUKE
    {20:21} And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person [of any,] but teachest the way of God truly:
    {20:22} Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
    {20:23} But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
    {20:24} Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
    {20:25} And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the
    things which be God’s. {20:26} And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

    Now, for any who are interested in a subject like this, can you tell me who is the figure featured on the obverse of this coin which is from that time, that land, that city and that Temple?

    Let's see if I can work the apps here..... here is hoping.




  • #2
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    I've often wondered about that coin.

    Here are the accounts from the KJV Bible.
    If anybody knows about the earliest copy of G-Mark, its language and its best translation in to English then that would be most helpful.

    Here we go:-

    MATTHEW
    {22:17} Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    {22:18} But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?
    {22:19} Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    {22:20} And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?
    {22:21} They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things
    which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
    {22:22} When they had heard [these words,] they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

    MARK
    {12:14} And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
    {12:15} Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it. ]
    {12:16} And they brought [it.] And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s.
    {12:17} And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

    LUKE
    {20:21} And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person [of any,] but teachest the way of God truly:
    {20:22} Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
    {20:23} But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
    {20:24} Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
    {20:25} And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the
    things which be God’s. {20:26} And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

    Now, for any who are interested in a subject like this, can you tell me who is the figure featured on the obverse of this coin which is from that time, that land, that city and that Temple?

    Let's see if I can work the apps here..... here is hoping.


    You would need a numismatist to identify the coin, but the emperor looks like Nero.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      You would need a numismatist to identify the coin, but the emperor looks like Nero.
      Or one of those people who specializes in coins.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        That definitely looks like Nero, comparing it to other Nero coins. Specifically the thick neck and forehead. But the coin they showed Jesus definitely wasn't Nero. It would have been Tiberius, unless there were old Augustus coins around.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          You would need a numismatist to identify the coin, but the emperor looks like Nero.
          Thank you for your guess.
          No...... it is not Nero nor any Roman Caesar or Emperor.
          It is a God. Truly, a Roman God.

          Let's see if anybody gets that coin right.
          IT is the Temple 1/2 shekel which was hammered from 39BC until about 30+ CE. I don't actually know the exact date when it ceased, but after 30CE.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            Or one of those people who specializes in coins.
            I reckon the Temple Priesthood knew about it. And Jesus as well.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Faber View Post
              That definitely looks like Nero, comparing it to other Nero coins. Specifically the thick neck and forehead. But the coin they showed Jesus definitely wasn't Nero. It would have been Tiberius, unless there were old Augustus coins around.
              Hi...... and thanks for your post.

              I've got a theory that this coin was what was handed to Jesus, and it doesn't feature a Roman Emperor at all. Itg is reputed to feature a God, a Greek called Melgarth Heracles, known to the Jews as Baal. This was struck on to the Temple coins from 39BC until the time of Jesus. Those Romans really did stick it to the Jews.

              And the Inscription of Caesar is on the reverse in Greek abbreviation....... KP.
              And just to finish off the insult, the Graven image of a Raptor on the bows of a boat.


              I reckon that was the coin in the bag of the guy that gave Jesus a coin.
              What fun he must have had........ 'Whose Image and Inscription...??'

              Hey.... I'm working on it.

              Comment


              • #8
                THE TEMPLE SHEKEL.
                What an insult to the Jews and Temple alike.

                No wonder Jesus asked for a coin. No wonder the Priests dare not answer truthfully.
                Jesus must have loved that moment.
                And the writers never knew about that joke.
                In my opinion.


                Tyrian shekel - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tyrian_shekel
                Tyrian shekels, tetradrachms, or tetradrachmas were coins of Tyre, which in the Roman Empire took on an unusual role as the medium of payment for the Temple tax in Jerusalem, and subsequently gained notoriety as a likely mode of payment for Judas Iscariot.
                The shekel, with the laureate head of Melqarth-Herakles (a pagan deity) on the obverse and an eagle (a graven image) on the reverse, averaged 14.2 gm in weight and contained at least 94 per cent silver. These coins were minted in Tyre between 126/125 BC and 19/18 BC. After the Roman government closed the Tyre mint, these coins continued to be minted at an unknown mint, probably in or near Jerusalem, from 18/17 BC until AD 69/70. The Jewish coin makers continued to strike coins with the image of Melqarth-Herakles and the eagle. This was contrary to the clear teachings of the Word of God (Ex 20:3, 4: Dt. 4:16-18; 5:8). Yet the rabbis declared that the Tyrian shekels were the only legal currency that was acceptable in the Temple (Hendin 2001:420-29; 2002:46, 47). The rabbis decided that the commandment to give the half-shekel Temple tax, with its proper weight and purity, was more important than the prohibition of who or what image was on the coin.

                ---------------------------------------------
                Wiki didn't mention the Initials of Caesar in Greek Abbreviation.

                I reckon that the mint got moved from Tyre circa 18BC because transporting Silver bullion from Tyre to Jerusalem either through Samaria or around Samaria along the Jordan was really really dodgy.

                Those shipments must have got knocked-off so many times!
                So the mint new mint near Jerusalem was kept a very good secret because we don't know where it is now.

                By the way, you can tell a shekel from around when Jesus lived from the ones struck at the Tyrian mint.... the Romans cared very much about silver content and weight because they took a % of the Temple 'take' and calculated silver content and coin weight precisely. But they didn't give a hoot for the strike quality, hence the Jerusalem coins were usually mis-strikes.

                ------------------------------------------

                I don't believe for a moment that the official handed Jesus a denarius.... not for a moment.
                It was a brilliant joke by Jesus, and true enough because Caesar's inscription was on that coin, but the image of Baal on the front? I reckon the Priesthood had kept that a secret because they couldn't do anything about it.
                Ashamed, or what?


                Luv it!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by eider View Post

                  Thank you for your guess.
                  No...... it is not Nero nor any Roman Caesar or Emperor.
                  It is a God. Truly, a Roman God.

                  Let's see if anybody gets that coin right.
                  IT is the Temple 1/2 shekel which was hammered from 39BC until about 30+ CE. I don't actually know the exact date when it ceased, but after 30CE.
                  What evidence are you citing for your contentions? I do like people to support their allegations.
                  "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by eider View Post

                    Thank you for your guess.
                    No...... it is not Nero nor any Roman Caesar or Emperor.
                    It is a God. Truly, a Roman God.

                    Let's see if anybody gets that coin right.
                    IT is the Temple 1/2 shekel which was hammered from 39BC until about 30+ CE. I don't actually know the exact date when it ceased, but after 30CE.
                    Further investigation online finds this

                    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ath...9/default.aspx

                    It should be noted that Melkart was a Semitic deity.





                    PHOENICIA, Tyre. 126 BC - 65 AD. AR Didrachm / Half-Shekel (6.64gm). Dated CY 143 (AD 17/8). Laureate bust of Melkart right / Eagle standing left on prow, palm on right wing; PM∆ (year 144) and club to left, Phoenician "A" between legs, KP and monogram to right.Prieur 1459; RPC I 4689, toned VF.

                    Quote from Forum Ancient coins.

                    "At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied was 1/2 shekel per male. The 1/2 shekel and shekel were the only coins accepted by the temple. Some experts believe that after the coinage of Tyre was debased under Roman control, Herod the Great began to strike "Tyre" shekels in Jerusalem. These coins were of cruder fabric and style, but maintained the silver purity required to pay the temple tax. The "Jerusalem" shekels have the letters KP or KAP to the right of the eagle and dates range from PH (18/17 B.C.) to PKE (69/70 A.D.). The Greek letters KP or KAP are probably an abbreviation for KAICAP, Greek for Caesar. "
                    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Further investigation online finds this

                      https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ath...9/default.aspx

                      It should be noted that Melkart was a Semitic deity.





                      PHOENICIA, Tyre. 126 BC - 65 AD. AR Didrachm / Half-Shekel (6.64gm). Dated CY 143 (AD 17/8). Laureate bust of Melkart right / Eagle standing left on prow, palm on right wing; PM∆ (year 144) and club to left, Phoenician "A" between legs, KP and monogram to right.Prieur 1459; RPC I 4689, toned VF.

                      Quote from Forum Ancient coins.

                      "At the Great Temple in Jerusalem the annual tax levied was 1/2 shekel per male. The 1/2 shekel and shekel were the only coins accepted by the temple. Some experts believe that after the coinage of Tyre was debased under Roman control, Herod the Great began to strike "Tyre" shekels in Jerusalem. These coins were of cruder fabric and style, but maintained the silver purity required to pay the temple tax. The "Jerusalem" shekels have the letters KP or KAP to the right of the eagle and dates range from PH (18/17 B.C.) to PKE (69/70 A.D.). The Greek letters KP or KAP are probably an abbreviation for KAICAP, Greek for Caesar. "
                      You see?
                      A God, in fact Melgath Heracles was known to the Jews as Baal.
                      That plus graven images and the inscription of Caesar in Greek was a total insult to Judaism
                      ​​​​​​and the Temple

                      please see.my post above number 8 for more details and ideas.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by eider View Post
                        You see?
                        A God, in fact Melgath Heracles was known to the Jews as Baal.
                        That plus graven images and the inscription of Caesar in Greek was a total insult to Judaism
                        ​​​​​​and the Temple

                        please see.my post above number 8 for more details and ideas.
                        All three accounts show that it is a Roman coin that portrays Caesar's image [either Augustus or Tiberius] and likewise all three accounts clearly use the Greek.δηνάριον. Therefore it was self evidently a Roman coin.

                        From where do you get the impression it was not?
                        "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          All three accounts show that it is a Roman coin that portrays Caesar's image [either Augustus or Tiberius] and likewise all three accounts clearly use the Greek.δηνάριον. Therefore it was self evidently a Roman coin.

                          From where do you get the impression it was not?
                          The Tyrian Shekel was a Roman coin, with Roman impressions, Roman Graven Images and the Roman Caesar's impression.

                          You've just shown me that the bible accounts of 'penny' and 'denarius' are not certain by any means.
                          It was a Tyrian Shekel, I have little doubt.

                          I must copy that Greek word if my computer can hold it. It does! Brilliant!


                          EDIT: There is only one problem for me.
                          Translators are now suggesting that Mark and Matthew were originally written in Eastern Aramaic. I wonder what the word is for Roman-Coin in that language?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by eider View Post

                            The Tyrian Shekel was a Roman coin, with Roman impressions, Roman Graven Images and the Roman Caesar's impression.

                            You've just shown me that the bible accounts of 'penny' and 'denarius' are not certain by any means.
                            It was a Tyrian Shekel, I have little doubt.

                            I must copy that Greek word if my computer can hold it. It does! Brilliant!


                            EDIT: There is only one problem for me.
                            Translators are now suggesting that Mark and Matthew were originally written in Eastern Aramaic. I wonder what the word is for Roman-Coin in that language?
                            All three Synoptic gospels use the Greek δηνάριον [denarion]. That translates into Latin as denarius. So it is not a shekel.

                            And who are these translators?
                            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              All three Synoptic gospels use the Greek δηνάριον [denarion]. That translates into Latin as denarius. So it is not a shekel.

                              And who are these translators?
                              Hang about!
                              Who were threse authors??? !!!!

                              You've already pointed out to me that you can only ASSUME that Jesus even lived, and now you want to tell me how CERTAIN you feel that the coin passed to Jesus was a denarius, in the Great Temple where many many scores of thousands of shekels passed hands in one (great) feast week. ??? How come?
                              Where did all this sudden certainty come from?

                              As you already have told, you are not sure of anything, and I know that the Apostles were not disciples, with only one writer having been a partial witness imo. So the coin is in doubt before we start.

                              But the Tyrian shekel was an outrage, one which Jesus could really play with in that situation, and the INSCIPTION on it was Caesar's.

                              As I said, it is now believed that G-Mark and G-Matthew were probably/possible first written in Eastern Aramaic, if so the Greek word is an approximate, in the same way as my KJV bible uses the term 'penny' the gospels.


                              MATTHEW {22:17} Tell us therefore,
                              What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar,
                              or not? {22:18} But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and
                              said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites? {22:19} Shew me
                              the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
                              {22:20} And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and
                              superscription? {22:21} They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then
                              saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things
                              which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
                              {22:22} When they had heard [these words,] they
                              marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

                              MARK {12:14}
                              And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we
                              know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou
                              regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of
                              God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
                              {12:15} Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he,
                              knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye
                              me? bring me a penny, that I may see [it. ]{12:16} And they
                              brought [it.] And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image
                              and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar’s.
                              {12:17} And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to
                              Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things
                              that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.

                              LUKE {20:21}
                              And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou
                              sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person
                              [of any,] but teachest the way of God truly: {20:22} Is it
                              lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? {20:23} But
                              he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why
                              tempt ye me? {20:24} Shew me a penny. Whose image and
                              superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
                              {20:25} And he said unto them, Render therefore unto
                              Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the
                              things which be God’s. {20:26} And they could not take
                              hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at
                              his answer, and held their peace.

                              So how certain are you feeling about this, eh?

                              Comment

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