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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Meanwhile, I see less and less division among evangelistic churches as they realize we, to some degree, are "all in this together" when persecution comes.

    And, by NO MEANS do I believe that American Christianity is under persecution to ANY extent like they are in other parts of the word, but where the Church is persecuted, a common enemy is recognized.
    In light of the recent lethal storming of your capital by right-wingers, I guess I have to take your warlike language seriously rather than just rolling my eyes at your persecution complex...

    So who do you view as this "common enemy"? How are they "persecuting" you?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      In light of the recent lethal storming of your capital by right-wingers, I guess I have to take your warlike language seriously rather than just rolling my eyes at your persecution complex..
      The Capital was “stormed” by the supporters of Trump. And he would NOT have been in power in the first place if it were NOT for Evangelical Christianity.

      https://www.npr.org/2020/11/08/93226...-2016-patterns

      So who do you view as this "common enemy"? How are they "persecuting" you?
      One must assume that the “common enemy” comprises those who do NOT accept Trump’s lies re his alleged “stolen election”. Cue accusations of “Trump derangement syndrome” by the deplorables – or is this now somewhat passé since Trump’s ignoble downfall?
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        In light of the recent lethal storming of your capital by right-wingers,
        The EXTREME right who we all denounce without reservation.

        I guess I have to take your warlike language
        Ahhhh, does widdle starlight need a safe place?

        seriously rather than just rolling my eyes at your persecution complex...
        Perhaps you missed the part where I clearly said "And, by NO MEANS do I believe that American Christianity is under persecution to ANY extent"....

        So who do you view as this "common enemy"? How are they "persecuting" you?
        Well, right now it's just ignorant internet s like you and Tassy, but I take that in stride.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          One must assume that the “common enemy” comprises those who do NOT accept Trump’s lies re his alleged “stolen election”. Cue accusations of “Trump derangement syndrome” by the deplorables – or is this now somewhat passé since Trump’s ignoble downfall?
          One only assumes that if they're totally ignorant of what Christians actually believe.

          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Meanwhile, I see less and less division among evangelistic churches as they realize we, to some degree, are "all in this together" when persecution comes.
            So you belong to an evangelistical church?
            Excellent. How do you proselytize? Do you go out knocking on doors, or are you a street pastor? I see street pastors around here (Canterbury. England) when in that city and one of my wife's colleagues is a street-pastor.
            Maybe you have advertised introduction meetings?
            I've heard of radio evangelism, I remember Billy Graham who came here in the 60s (?).

            And, by NO MEANS do I believe that American Christianity is under persecution to ANY extent like they are in other parts of the word, but where the Church is persecuted, a common enemy is recognized.
            Ah, you already answered my next question with the above.
            Where I live a % of the people write 'Christian' on questionnaire forms and might still swear on the bible before giving evidence to a Court, etc..... but they are what I call 'Social Christians'. They don't believe, attend Church and live like the few remaining Christians do.
            Before lockdown I would cycle all over the district on Sunday mornings and would often go and rest in local Churches and Chapels which still might be open early on Sunday mornings. Apart from the Catholic Church which might have a congregation of 15-20 on a Sunday Communion most churches would have 3-6 persons present, all over 70yrs of age.

            The only religious centre that is full up on a Sunday is the local Kingdom Hall (JWs) which has to hold two services each Sunday and the town here is divided in to two groups. And the Christian Spiritual Chapel has maybe 10-15 present at afternoon services.

            Christianity didn't get persecuted here, people just left it.... unless you class Mammon etc as a form of persecution.


            But some Churches (here) don't cling to others at all, far from it. Some Christians here would not take food or drink with you, honestly.



            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              The Capital was “stormed” by the supporters of Trump. And he would NOT have been in power in the first place if it were NOT for Evangelical Christianity.
              President Trump is so far removed from my perception of what a Christian is! It's amazing!
              I perceive President Trump as being the prophet of Mammon.
              Hey.... but that is just me and my viewpoint.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                One only assumes that if they're totally ignorant of what Christians actually believe.
                That can be the problem, I think.
                Some folks that I debate with claim to be Christians, saved through Grace, others believe that they were saved from the beginning by God's choice, others by Faith alone, yet others through how they live. Yet others believe in Christian Spiritualism and even more believe in a single God- Unitarians. They don't tend to cling to each other.

                But some of them tell me that they lean to the Right because they are Righteous, whereas a miserable Deist like me leans to the Left and is Evil. Deists are all Satan's spawn, or something like that.

                So I cannot tell exactly when any one single Christian believes. The very most frightening ones want a Theonomy or Theocracy where (strangely) Old Testament law is followed and Judges rule. I wouldn't give the average English teenaged kid a chance in that particular kind of Christian World.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by eider View Post

                  President Trump is so far removed from my perception of what a Christian is! It's amazing!
                  I perceive President Trump as being the prophet of Mammon.
                  Hey.... but that is just me and my viewpoint.
                  Oh yes, certainly. But he panders to his Evangelical base and gets rewarded for it by their support. He erroneously presents the US as under siege by leftist, anti-Christian terrorists, and himself as the valorous protector of the "Christian values" of a "Christian nation.” - single-handedly saving white Christian America from ruin. We can all see where this has led America - riots, cheating, insurrection and violent disorder...
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    Oh yes, certainly. But he panders to his Evangelical base and gets rewarded for it by their support. He erroneously presents the US as under siege by leftist, anti-Christian terrorists, and himself as the valorous protector of the "Christian values" of a "Christian nation.” - single-handedly saving white Christian America from ruin. We can all see where this has led America - riots, cheating, insurrection and violent disorder...
                    It is truly amazing, who faithful Christians could support that President. Amazing!

                    For the anyone to believe that he is anti-gay or anti-abortion is just mind boggling for me to wonder about. He has many friends and colleagues who are gay and I have seen him holding up a rainbow flag (which I am perfectly happy about, by the way). And I have read before that he paid a girlfriend to end a pregnancy once...... can't tell if that's true but I've never heard that claim refuted.

                    That incident where security and law enforcement forced demonstrators off the White House lawn area so that he could walk in front of the Church/Chapel to hold up a bible ......... No.

                    I feel quite confident to believe that President Trump's God is money, power and status.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by eider View Post
                      So you belong to an evangelistical church?
                      Excellent. How do you proselytize?
                      That word has a negative connotation, often referred to as "steeling sheep".

                      Do you go out knocking on doors, or are you a street pastor? I see street pastors around here (Canterbury. England) when in that city and one of my wife's colleagues is a street-pastor.
                      Maybe you have advertised introduction meetings?
                      I've heard of radio evangelism, I remember Billy Graham who came here in the 60s (?).
                      We have a Church building in which we worship, and provide community services, and we are part of an area wide faith-based mission where we meet people at the point of their need, like Jesus did.

                      [quolte]Ah, you already answered my next question with the above.
                      Where I live a % of the people write 'Christian' on questionnaire forms and might still swear on the bible before giving evidence to a Court, etc..... but they are what I call 'Social Christians'. They don't believe, attend Church and live like the few remaining Christians do.
                      Before lockdown I would cycle all over the district on Sunday mornings and would often go and rest in local Churches and Chapels which still might be open early on Sunday mornings. Apart from the Catholic Church which might have a congregation of 15-20 on a Sunday Communion most churches would have 3-6 persons present, all over 70yrs of age.

                      The only religious centre that is full up on a Sunday is the local Kingdom Hall (JWs) which has to hold two services each Sunday and the town here is divided in to two groups. And the Christian Spiritual Chapel has maybe 10-15 present at afternoon services.

                      Christianity didn't get persecuted here, people just left it.... unless you class Mammon etc as a form of persecution.

                      But some Churches (here) don't cling to others at all, far from it. Some Christians here would not take food or drink with you, honestly.[/QUOTE]

                      I'm referring to real persecution, like a pastor friend of mine whose wife was beaten and raped in front of him at gunpoint, and he was told never to preach the Gospel again.
                      They moved to another town and started preaching again.

                      You'll find the usual suspects here twisting your words then mocking their dishonest version of what you said.

                      Anything else?

                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        That word has a negative connotation, often referred to as "steeling sheep".
                        Faie enough.
                        No insult intended
                        I'm referring to real persecution, like a pastor friend of mine whose wife was beaten and raped in front of him at gunpoint, and he was told never to preach the Gospel again.
                        They moved to another town and started preaching again.
                        What persons did that? Were they caught?
                        And why?

                        We see religious persecution around here all the time. But not upon Christians.
                        My wife's friend works at the post office run by an Indian Hindu. He got beaten up because the thugs thought he was a Pakistani Muslim.

                        t
                        That kind of crime.


                        You'll find the usual suspects here twisting your words then mocking their dishonest version of what you said.

                        Anything else?
                        I don't have a problem with that.
                        Folks can often misinterpret words.

                        ​​​​​​​Thanks for your post

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by eider View Post
                          Faie enough.
                          No insult intended
                          Didn't think so - probably means something different over there.
                          Like when I was an HR conference, and I heard a woman Brit talking about "redundancies", meaning layoffs of personnel.


                          What persons did that? Were they caught?
                          And why?
                          Well, it was one of those kinds of things where you didn't bother "calling the police" because it WAS the police.
                          In some areas of the world, that's how bad the corruption is.

                          We see religious persecution around here all the time. But not upon Christians.
                          My wife's friend works at the post office run by an Indian Hindu. He got beaten up because the thugs thought he was a Pakistani Muslim.

                          t
                          That kind of crime.
                          I saw an episode on Blue Bloods about that - a police officer mistook a Sikh for a Muslim who had committed a crime.
                          The Sikh was a prominent neurosurgeon at the hospital.
                          They often have episodes that bring injustices like that to the public attention.

                          I don't have a problem with that.
                          Folks can often misinterpret words.

                          ​​​​​​​Thanks for your post
                          We've got a few nasties who just love to come on a Christian-run website and act like jerks.
                          I guess it makes them fell tough or big or something.

                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            In light of the recent lethal storming of your capital by right-wingers, I guess I have to take your warlike language seriously rather than just rolling my eyes at your persecution complex...

                            So who do you view as this "common enemy"? How are they "persecuting" you?
                            As opposed to the lethal storming and occupation of portions of various cities by leftists, which they declared were autonomous zones no longer under the laws of the U.S. (talk about an insurrection) and patrolled by armed gunmen who had this tendency to shoot and kill anyone who got near them? Like the two people in separate instances outside the six city blocks seized and taken over in Seattle (a few others were "merely" shot and wounded). And the little girl in Atlanta murdered in her mother's car as she tried to turn around in a parking lot.

                            And the persecution varies by what country and region you are talking about. Like in many Muslim countries where it is illegal to build a church and punishable by death to proselytize, and in some like Afghanistan it is effectively illegal to be a Christian. Of course it isn't just Islamic countries. North Korea views Christianity has something to be eradicated either summarily executing them or sending them and virtually everyone related to them to work camps.

                            According to the Pew Research Centre Report Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world and the persecution is increasing. This is confirmed by other recent studies including one by civitas.org.uk and University of Notre Dame's Center for Ethics and Culture (in cooperation with Georgetown University's Religious Freedom Research Project). The latter study has moved the British Foreign Secretary to investigate the global persecution of Christians. Several years ago the Vatican expressed "deep concern" to the UN over the killing of 100,000 Christians each year because of their faith.

                            This has been confirmed by the Danish National Research Database, which found that Christians are, as of 2019, the most persecuted religious group in the world and even Open Borders, which uses very conservative numbers, eliminating Christians killed in what they term "tribal conflicts" in spite of the fact that they wouldn't have been targeted or killed if they weren't Christian, acknowledges that "each day, a staggering 11 Christians are killed for their faith in the top 50 countries ranked on [their] World Watch List."

                            And from Newsweek magazine (in spite of the hyperbolic title):

                            Source: PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS IS APPROACHING GENOCIDE LEVELS, REPORT FINDS: CHRISTIANITY 'IS AT RISK OF DISAPPEARING'


                            A new report says that the persecution of Christians across the world is fast becoming genocide and that the faith will soon disappear in some areas of the world, even in locations where its presence dates back to antiquity.

                            The crisis was made apparent recently by the Sri Lanka attacks on Easter, when Islamic extremists targeted three churches and three hotels in Colombo in a series of bombings. The attacks killed 253 people and injured hundreds more.

                            The British government commissioned Bishop of Truro Philip Mounstephen to lead a review of persecution of Christians and to recommend how the U.K. Foreign Office should respond to it. That review has now published an interim report detailing its findings so far.

                            "Evidence shows not only the geographic spread of anti-Christian persecution, but also its increasing severity," the report states. "In some regions, the level and nature of persecution is arguably coming close to meeting the international definition of genocide, according to that adopted by the UN."

                            The review found that eradicating Christians and other minorities through violence was the explicit objective of extremist groups in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, northeast Nigeria and the Philippines.

                            These groups are not only murdering Christians for their faith but also whitewashing all evidence of their existence by destroying churches and removing religious symbols such as crosses. Clergy are also being targeted for kidnapping and killing.

                            "Where these and other incidents meet the tests of genocide, governments will be required to bring perpetrators to justice, aid victims and take preventative measures for the future," the report said.

                            "The main impact of such genocidal acts against Christians is exodus. Christianity now faces the possibility of being wiped out in parts of the Middle East where its roots go back furthest". Christianity is at risk of disappearing, representing a massive setback for plurality in the region," the report continued.

                            The Christian population is now below 1.5 percent in Palestine, according to the report. In war-torn Syria, which has been occupied by extremists such as the Islamic State militant group (ISIS), the Christian population dropped from 1.7 million in 2011 to below 450,000.

                            In Iraq, where ISIS and smaller extremist groups also have a strong foothold, including control of some areas, the number of Christians has fallen from 1.5 million before 2003 -- the year the second Gulf war started -- to below 120,000 today.

                            According to the Pew Research Center, in 2016 Christians were harassed in 144 countries, up from 128 the year before. This makes them the most persecuted religious group in the world.



                            Source

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            And the BBC

                            Source: Iraq's Christians 'close to extinction'


                            The Archbishop of Irbil, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan, has accused Britain's Christian leaders of failing to do enough in defence of the vanishing Christian community in Iraq.

                            In an impassioned address in London, the Rt Rev Bashar Warda said Iraq's Christians now faced extinction after 1,400 years of persecution.

                            Since the US-led invasion toppled the regime of Saddam Hussein in 2003, he said, the Christian community had dwindled by 83%, from around 1.5 million to just 250,000.

                            "Christianity in Iraq," he said, "one of the oldest Churches, if not the oldest Church in the world, is perilously close to extinction. Those of us who remain must be ready to face martyrdom."

                            He referred to the current, pressing threat from Islamic State (IS) jihadists as a "final, existential struggle", following the group's initial assault in 2014 that displaced more than 125,000 Christians from their historic homelands.

                            "Our tormentors confiscated our present," he said, "while seeking to wipe out our history and destroy our future. In Iraq there is no redress for those who have lost properties, homes and businesses. Tens of thousands of Christians have nothing to show for their life's work, for generations of work, in places where their families have lived, maybe, for thousands of years."


                            Source

                            © Copyright Original Source




                            And yet the MSM is largely only interested in kvetching about "Islamophobia" -- or should that be Somepeopleophobia in honor of the openly anti-Semite Rep. Ilhan Omar's (D–Minn.) description of the 9/11 terrorist attacks as merely being "some people did something."

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              You contended there was "no contemporary record" you did not specify a written contemporary record from the exact year. And as I remarked there is a wealth of material that may be included as a "contemporary record" for the eruption of Vesuvius.

                              However, if you are challenging an event's occurrence because no written record dated to the precise year of that event exists then you cannot contend that what has come down to us concerning Paul's writings [or indeed any NT texts] should be considered reliable. .
                              Somethings should be obvious enough that they should not need to be spoon fed. For instance, if I were to mention New York City it is probably unnecessary to add that it is in the state of New York.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Somethings should be obvious enough that they should not need to be spoon fed. For instance, if I were to mention New York City it is probably unnecessary to add that it is in the state of New York.
                                As Molesworth might observe "any fule kno" that the phrase "contemporary record" when discussing primary historical sources does not just refer to any written contemporary record.
                                "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                                Comment

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