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"Jesus is God" was an early belief

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  • #16
    Originally posted by thormas View Post

    I'm fine with the scholarly dating of the epistles from roughly 49-60 CE.

    Later writings refers to anything after Paul,especially the gospels dated roughly from the early 70s to the mid 90s CE.
    So then there does NOT seem to be differences between the earlier and the later writings in the NT concerning Jesus in this respect after all, since in both we can find reference to Him being God.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      So then there does NOT seem to be differences between the earlier and the later writings in the NT concerning Jesus in this respect after all, since in both we can find reference to Him being God.
      Actually there do seem to be differences. First, Paul shows an exaltation Christology wherein Jesus is exalted and 'made' Son of God and Lord at the resurrection (by God). Then we move to Mark, at the baptism of Jesus, then Matthew and Luke, at Mary's conception, then finally John, at the beginning (incarnation Christology).

      In addition, in Paul we also have him understanding Jesus as an angel of the Lord who is not God and takes on flesh and is made Lord and 'super exalted' (again)at the resurrection where all shall bend a knee.

      It is all very interesting.
      Last edited by thormas; 11-02-2020, 05:16 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by thormas View Post
        In addition, in Paul we also have him understanding Jesus as an angel of the Lord who is not God and takes on flesh and is made Lord and 'super exalted' (again)at the resurrection where all shall bend a knee.
        Can you cite some Scripture references for these?


        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Nationalist.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

          Can you cite some Scripture references for these?

          I'll provide the verse but then refer you to Ehrman's blog since it is online and easier to reference than a book. As he says, it is a bit involved but it is compelling.

          Galatians 4:14
          https://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of...l-for-members/

          The “Christ Poem” in Philippians 2:6-11.
          https://ehrmanblog.org/was-christ-an...rding-to-paul/ This covers some of the same material as above but Ehrman uses the angel idea to make sense of the poem.

          And then there is: https://ehrmanblog.org/christ-as-an-angel-in-paul-2/ here he shows that Hurtado disagrees with him.


          Long story, short: this is interesting and intriguing but I am still studying it to see which interpretation I buy into. The jury is still out and, for me, so it remains a minor issue. What I do find interesting is this high Christology in the earliest NT writings contrasted (but perhaps not??) with the ancient creeds in Paul which seem to clearly show that Jesus is (only) exalted at the resurrection.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by thormas View Post

            I'll provide the verse but then refer you to Ehrman's blog since it is online and easier to reference than a book. As he says, it is a bit involved but it is compelling.

            Galatians 4:14
            https://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of...l-for-members/

            The “Christ Poem” in Philippians 2:6-11.
            https://ehrmanblog.org/was-christ-an...rding-to-paul/ This covers some of the same material as above but Ehrman uses the angel idea to make sense of the poem.

            And then there is: https://ehrmanblog.org/christ-as-an-angel-in-paul-2/ here he shows that Hurtado disagrees with him.


            Long story, short: this is interesting and intriguing but I am still studying it to see which interpretation I buy into. The jury is still out and, for me, so it remains a minor issue. What I do find interesting is this high Christology in the earliest NT writings contrasted (but perhaps not??) with the ancient creeds in Paul which seem to clearly show that Jesus is (only) exalted at the resurrection.
            Okay. If you need to rely on the interpretation of the verses by someone regarded as an outlier at best, you probably aren't standing on firm ground.

            ETA: Okay, just checked through the posting history here for Ehrman and it appears he is your go-to-guy for virtually everything.

            It looks to me like you did not
            Last edited by rogue06; 11-03-2020, 08:19 AM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Okay. If you need to rely on the interpretation of the verses by someone regarded as an outlier at best, you probably aren't standing on firm ground.

              ETA: Okay, just checked through the posting history here for Ehrman and it appears he is your go-to-guy for virtually everything.

              It looks to me like you did not

              Do you actually hear yourself when you make such statements?

              We rely on experts for most things in life..........even other experts rely on experts in their same field. This includes doctors, dentists, pilots, auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc.............and most people also have enough humility to recognize that, when it comes to the Bible, they are not versed in ancient languages, ancient writings and style and most simply don't have the time (a lifetime of study) to delve into it nearly as thoroughly as a biblical scholar or historian. As I have previously posted, one doesn't need scholars to read the Bible devotionally and to use it as a guide for their lives. However, since we are on a site such as this, it is evident (or at least one hopes) that many/most are not intimidated by delving into the Bible and are capable of reading and understanding scholarly works.

              Actually, as mentioned in this particular post, I presented Ehrman because of his blog and its easy accessibility: it is easier to cut and paste when citing him.

              I have referred to many other scholars in my posts - so I have a lot go 'go-to' scholars :+} Actually, I have go-to theologians/philosophers and I also have go-to biblical scholars and historians of Christianity that I refer to when appropriate, depending on the topic.

              Ehrman is not an outlier..............except for fundamentalists and mythicists...........and, he is hardly an outlier among critical, serious scholars.
              Last edited by thormas; 11-03-2020, 09:18 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by thormas View Post


                Do you actually hear yourself when you make such statements?

                We rely on experts for most things in life.........
                My point, that clearly sailed well above your head, is that your go-to "expert" is at best an outlier. Outliers are generally not the sort of experts that folks rely upon.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  My point, that clearly sailed well above your head, is that your go-to "expert" is at best an outlier. Outliers are generally not the sort of experts that folks rely upon.
                  Actually it didn't since I responded to it and dismissed it :+}



                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by thormas View Post

                    Actually it didn't since I responded to it and dismissed it :+}


                    So do you believe Jesus is God or not?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by thormas View Post



                      Ehrman is not an outlier..............except for fundamentalists and mythicists...........and, he is hardly an outlier among critical, serious scholars.
                      When Ehrman sticks with academic discussions he is fairly mainstream, but the moment he turns to the popular press the woo starts to flow. That's what made him an outlier

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        When Ehrman sticks with academic discussions he is fairly mainstream, but the moment he turns to the popular press the woo starts to flow. That's what made him an outlier
                        There you go, some nuance.

                        But his mainstream books follow on his scholarly work. So again, he is an outlier to some groups (who others consider outliers) but that is not the scholarly community's posture.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          For example, Polycarp (A.D. 69-155) who was a disciple of John the apostle wrote:

                          Source: Stand to Reason

                          Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

                          Source

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          This page then goes on to cite eight more early church fathers who wrote clearly that Jesus is God.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          It seems that it goes earlier than that. In Paul, we find numerous passages that present Jesus as a divine, even a pre-existent, being who then humbles himself and is born a human. And, the majority of scholars accept that some of what is included by Paul in his Phil. epistle, is actually an older creed/belief accepted and known in earlier 'Christian' groups.

                          There is some back and forth that Jesus is understood to be an angel of God, perhaps even the Angel of the Lord (Ehrman hold this view), whereas other scholars (for example, Hurtado) focus on the definite pre-existence of Jesus with God, his choice to humble himself and then his exaltation as a result of that humbling and sacrifice.

                          So rather than a gradual low to high Christology that is seemingly evident in the gospels, there is an amazingly high Christology in Paul and in early Christianity. Scholars make the point that Jesus is not or does not become God Almighty (the Father) - which is the accepted belief but it remains a bit vague in the poem who he is as a pre-existent divine being. There are also other references to Jesus as pre-existent divine being in Paul. However, it is interesting to at least ask, how, if Jesus is God, he can be 'highly exalted' by God the Father........what is higher than already being God?

                          The Christ Poem is discussed at length in Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God' and in Hurtado's 'How on Earth Did Jesus Become God.'
                          Last edited by thormas; 11-04-2020, 11:08 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            It seems that it goes earlier than that. In Paul, we find numerous passages that present Jesus as a divine, even a pre-existent, being who then humbles himself and is born a human. And, the majority of scholars accept that some of what is included by Paul in his Phil. epistle, is actually an older creed/belief accepted and known in earlier 'Christian' groups.

                            There is some back and forth that Jesus is understood to be an angel of God, perhaps even the Angel of the Lord (Ehrman hold this view), whereas other scholars (for example, Hurtado) focus on the definite pre-existence of Jesus with God, his choice to humble himself and then his exaltation as a result of that humbling and sacrifice.

                            So rather than a gradual low to high Christology that is seemingly evident in the gospels, there is an amazingly high Christology in Paul and in early Christianity. Scholars make the point that Jesus is not or does not become God Almighty (the Father) - which is the accepted belief but it remains a bit vague in the poem who he is as a pre-existent divine being. There are also other references to Jesus as pre-existent divine being in Paul. However, it is interesting to at least ask, how, if Jesus is God, he can be 'highly exalted' by God the Father........what is higher than already being God?

                            The Christ Poem is discussed at length in Ehrman's 'How Jesus Became God' and in Hurtado's 'How on Earth Did Jesus Become God.'
                            I haven't seen the discussions you talk about. However, this does not seem to be any issue. Jesus is the image of God, the message to mankind of God's love. So, Jesus' name is exalted that people may be drawn to God through Him. This does not detract from the Deity of Christ but just emphasizes His place among people and nations. Even if we look at names, the name Jesus is glorified more than Yahweh.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                              I haven't seen the discussions you talk about. However, this does not seem to be any issue. Jesus is the image of God, the message to mankind of God's love. So, Jesus' name is exalted that people may be drawn to God through Him. This does not detract from the Deity of Christ but just emphasizes His place among people and nations. Even if we look at names, the name Jesus is glorified more than Yahweh.
                              I have no real issue with your comments.........I'm just reporting scholarly positions based on my readings.

                              If you do have a chance read the relevant chapters in both books as the issues and comments are intriguing. There are discussions of image vs. form of God but no mention of God's love I believe, but that was simply not the issue in the Christ Hymn.
                              What is also interesting, as I mentioned, is why the need to be exalted if Jesus is already God. And, again if I remember correctly, there is not a discussion of being drawn to God through Jesus, rather it is about Jesus in the first part and then because of what Jesus did, his exaltation by God in the second part of the hymn.

                              It does not detract for his deity but it does leave some questions (like above) and also was he understood in this earliest period as an angel of God or another pre-existent divine being.......and if so, what.

                              I am not disagreeing your your comments which are your beliefs, I'm just clarifying what the hymn is about and the questions that remain (for some).

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