Originally posted by thormas
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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To Shunydragon-Christianity and Polytheism
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Neglecting is probably the wrong word, but holding to one ancient cultural view of God, and at times a number of conflicting and diverse beliefs within one religion like Christianity. A universal approach to God would reflect the hole history of humanity, and our physical existence, which is neglected from the perspective of any one religion, church or division there of.
I do know that many of the, for instance, theistic religions, share a great deal about God but is there a universal approach to God that you have in mind?
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
Got the first part and I agree.
I do know that many of the, for instance, theistic religions, share a great deal about God but is there a universal approach to God that you have in mind?
The universal would be God's perspective, and necessarily any one of the above belief systems limited by their cultural and time frame perspective of belief. Also the view of the Creator of all including all humanity, and the promise to Abraham to never leave humanity [All of humanity]. Name resembles A - Brahman.
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Again, I agree: all religions and philosophies are human constructs. However, I do believe God IS, that we discern something of the Divine in everyday life and religions are simply our 'insights' into the Divine.
We'll never have God's perspective however I do think that religions can move away from their cultural perspective and time frame and become universal - if they actually believe what they profess about God and free themselves from a literal dependence on their holy books.
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Originally posted by thormas View PostAgain, I agree: all religions and philosophies are human constructs. However, I do believe God IS, that we discern something of the Divine in everyday life and religions are simply our 'insights' into the Divine.
We'll never have God's perspective
. . . however I do think that religions can move away from their cultural perspective and time frame and become universal - if they actually believe what they profess about God and free themselves from a literal dependence on their holy books.
I do believe that humanity spiritually evolves in the spirit of Revelation as well as physically over the human history of millions of years.
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I agree: I have often found theologians in a classroom or in a book to be have a 'broader sense' of the God for all than a preacher or a Sunday school teacher.
Agree on God's perspective.
And I am an idealist :+}
We'll have to discuss Revelation some time.
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
I found it relatively easy to explain the HOW of the Eucharist (i.e. the real presence) by moving from transubstantiation to transignification. Part of the explanation turns on the definition of presence wherein proximity is a lower form of presence.
And I presented Gregory Baum's take on Trinity in another section, Unorthodox Theology 201.
Also, Spong's idea of God as a verb (as opposed to a known) is useful in presenting a better take on incarnation.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Yet again, the very need to have to explain doctrines such as the Trinity or the presence of Christ in the Communion is testament to the fact that they are not logical concepts in and of themselves. The most common understanding among ‘believers’ I know is that they are divine mysteries to be accepted as revealed truth by faith alone.
On one hand they are not logical but if they are completely illogical, at odds with our understanding of the world and simply sources of confusion - they become worthless to people. A simple explanation can make each 'come alive' and allows the symbol to resonate once again. I know because when I first heard better explanations, my response was "Yes, that makes sense" and when I taught others, the response was "Why didn't anybody ever tell us that before."
So, bottom line, why not, it's worth the effort.
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Originally posted by thormas View PostI agree: I have often found theologians in a classroom or in a book to be have a 'broader sense' of the God for all than a preacher or a Sunday school teacher.
Agree on God's perspective.
And I am an idealist :+}
We'll have to discuss Revelation some time.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Interesting subject, it does relate to the belief in the Trinity. From my perspective Creation and Revelation is one process of the evolution of our physical and spiritual existence. Revelation is universal and a reflection of the attributes of God.
I get the use of the word evolution but I don't use it when discussing the humanization of man (and the fulfillment of creation) - since it suggests a 'natural' movement. Rather I believe that without God there would be no humanization and no fulfillment. Or, put another way, man cannot do it on his own.Last edited by thormas; 10-14-2020, 03:04 PM.
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
I understand revelation is not information. Rather, revelation is the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to humanity. Therefore I agree that creation and this timeless giving of Self by God is one process that empowers creation to achieve its fulfillment .......in and with Him.
I get the use of the word evolution but I don't use it when discussing the humanization of man (and the fulfillment of creation) - since it suggests a 'natural' movement. Rather I believe that without God there would be no humanization and no fulfillment. Or, put another way, man cannot do it on his own.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
What science see is a 'natural' constantly changing evolution of not only humanity and life, but our physical existence including planets stars galaxies, and likely universes. I do not believe in a conflict between what science sees and Creation. I believe it is more than obvious that humanity spiritually evolves over time also. I believe it is a harmonious dynamic cyclic process of Creation and Revelation. .
However I have no issue with the scientific concept of evolution.
I would say that man has not really spiritually evolved very much since his dawn. Any truly 'spiritual evolution' of individuals is 'in relation to God.'
When time permits you'll have to explain your last sentence for me.
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
I agree they involve myth and symbol but just as, in the past, earlier Christians tried to 'explain' each in the philosophical language of their day and since that language is no longer ours, and since each of these doctrines are sources of confusion and even disillusionment - there is a need to re-present each in a language of our day so they 'speak' to modern people.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
There is a need to "re-present" core Christian doctrines such as the Trinity and Hypostatic Union etc. "in a language of our day so they 'speak' to modern people" ONLY if they are true. But there is no good reason to believe they are true other than the need for ‘believers’ to rationalize preexisting essential doctrinal beliefs. Namely, the requirement to justify the man Jesus as God whilst, at the same time, preserving the notion of monotheism.
I can get my head around the idea of the 'movements' of the one God in creation. I can also get my head around the idea of humanity embodying (i.e. incarnating or making flesh) Divinity ........which is actually an everyday act.
I have no need to justify and I have no problem rejecting things which are nonsensical: satan, hell, atonement, original sin, virgin conception and on and on.
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Originally posted by thormas View Post
My simple point is that if such evolution were natural, there would be no need for God.
Rather, 'evolution' or the humanization of man/woman is only accomplished in response to God.
However I have no issue with the scientific concept of evolution.
I would say that man has not really spiritually evolved very much since his dawn. Any truly 'spiritual evolution' of individuals is 'in relation to God.'
When time permits you'll have to explain your last sentence for me.
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