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  • #46
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    This would be a Metaphysical Naturalist assumption, and interpretation of what is 'natural.' The reality is science by definition deals with Natural Laws and natural processes neutral to the whether God exists or not. Many Theists may be uncomfortable with this neutrality, and from the extreme end accuse science of being atheist.



    A bit of a contradiction here. The way you use 'humanization' is Metaphysical assumption.



    Spiritual evolution is both the 'individual' and the collective evolution is 'our relationship to God.'. The Bible and other scriptures of the world definitely show a collective evolution of our relationship to God as humanity as whole in our knowledge of the attributes of God. This reflects a more universal perspective Science it self reflects the evolution of knowledge of humanity, which cannot be distinctly separated from our spiritual evolution.
    I'm very comfortable with natural law and processes: I don't accept a traditional theistic understanding and I accept evolution as it is presently understood as part of that natural process. I assume such neutrality.

    Science is the study of the 'things' of the natural universe and God, as understood by religion (or theologians), is no thing and therefore cannot be the object of such study. I fully accept that science can tell us much about man, understood as part of nature, but it can tell us nothing (or little) of man as a 'spiritual or transcendent' being. There is human evolution as presently understood and then there is the humanization (or Divination) of man/woman about which science is, by its nature, silent.

    So, in the way I used the terms above (natural evolution as compared to spiritual humanization), there is no contradiction. The humanization of man is an assumption..........or simply a religious belief and it is a metaphysical assumption.

    I agree that individual and communal 'evolution or humanization' are interconnected however it is also true that some individuals get 'there' well before their community.
    Last edited by thormas; 10-15-2020, 09:38 AM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by thormas View Post

      Yet who can know if these, if any religious 'insights' or the insight of the atheist or the agnostic are true? It is - as it always has (or should have been) a question of belief. And then explaining that belief if one sees it as valuable.

      I can get my head around the idea of the 'movements' of the one God in creation. I can also get my head around the idea of humanity embodying (i.e. incarnating or making flesh) Divinity ........which is actually an everyday act.

      I have no need to justify and I have no problem rejecting things which are nonsensical: satan, hell, atonement, original sin, virgin conception and on and on.
      And this brings us back to my argument that the only way for 'believers' to accept logically contradictory doctrines, such as the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union, is to regard them as divine mysteries and accept them on faith.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post

        And this brings us back to my argument that the only way for 'believers' to accept logically contradictory doctrines, such as the Trinity or the Hypostatic Union, is to regard them as divine mysteries and accept them on faith.
        And that might work for some but it is obvious that it does not work for all or even many - any longer.

        Faith is not incompatible with reason and there have been 'models' for decades that make sense for people and can bring the divine interaction of God with man to life and to make sense out of it.

        And to bring your comment to its logical conclusion, there never should have been such a formulation - Christians should have just accepted the divine mystery presented in the gospels 'on faith.' They didn't: if they can attempt to 'explain' it - why can't others in later centuries?
        Last edited by thormas; 10-16-2020, 08:29 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by thormas View Post

          I understand revelation is not information. Rather, revelation is the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to humanity. Therefore I agree that creation and this timeless giving of Self by God is one process that empowers creation to achieve its fulfillment .......in and with Him.

          I get the use of the word evolution but I don't use it when discussing the humanization of man (and the fulfillment of creation) - since it suggests a 'natural' movement. Rather I believe that without God there would be no humanization and no fulfillment. Or, put another way, man cannot do it on his own.
          Actually I believe Revelation does involve information as well as Creation.

          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by thormas View Post

            I'm very comfortable with natural law and processes: I don't accept a traditional theistic understanding and I accept evolution as it is presently understood as part of that natural process. I assume such neutrality.

            Science is the study of the 'things' of the natural universe and God, as understood by religion (or theologians), is no thing and therefore cannot be the object of such study. I fully accept that science can tell us much about man, understood as part of nature, but it can tell us nothing (or little) of man as a 'spiritual or transcendent' being. There is human evolution as presently understood and then there is the humanization (or Divination) of man/woman about which science is, by its nature, silent.

            So, in the way I used the terms above (natural evolution as compared to spiritual humanization), there is no contradiction. The humanization of man is an assumption..........or simply a religious belief and it is a metaphysical assumption.

            I agree that individual and communal 'evolution or humanization' are interconnected however it is also true that some individuals get 'there' well before their community.
            I guess I am not used to using the word 'humanization in the manner you use it. We are sort of in agreement on many points
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Actually I believe Revelation does involve information as well as Creation.
              So what do you mean by information and what is it?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                I guess I am not used to using the word 'humanization in the manner you use it. We are sort of in agreement on many points
                I agree.

                I guess I have come to believe that we are created to become Human and that process is our humanization. Some of the Eastern Fathers of the Church referred to this as our divinization. In either case, it means that man/woman are born 'immature' and must grow into the fullest expression of what it means to be Human. And this is only accomplished when man 'turns' from self-centeredness to Love (i.e. God) and becomes an embodiment or incarnation of God (Love) in the world. Humanization or divinization happens only when divinity dwells in humanity and in that man/woman fulfills his destiny.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by thormas View Post

                  So what do you mean by information and what is it?
                  The evolution of the mind and consciousness of humanity as information is an intimate Revelation of the nature of being human. The evolution of civilization from primal tribal, to kingdom tribal to nations to eventually a world spiritual consciousness is the evolution of information. The evolution of morals and ethics is a witness to this evolution of information. I believe there is abundant evidence that this occurs as the cyclic evolution of the cultures of the world throughout the history of humanity going back to our very primal beginnings.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    The evolution of the mind and consciousness of humanity as information is an intimate Revelation of the nature of being human. The evolution of civilization from primal tribal, to kingdom tribal to nations to eventually a world spiritual consciousness is the evolution of information. The evolution of morals and ethics is a witness to this evolution of information. I believe there is abundant evidence that this occurs as the cyclic evolution of the cultures of the world throughout the history of humanity going back to our very primal beginnings.
                    I guess the way I have come to understand it is that revelation is the self-revealing of God - but is not information (as the scriptures are oftentimes thought to be information from God). Just as when we are getting to know another human being, there is an exchange of information but what is given is self and it is in the giving of oneself that the other can 'become more' in the process of such mutual giving. So too with God, because that is the nature of human relationships and God, in this, caters to us, so to speak. Jesus gave himself to his disciples, to people - of course in this they heard his words and saw his actions in the world - but he revealed himself and slowly, both before and perhaps especially after his death (and their experience of 'resurrection'), reflecting on him, they began to discern and understand, they had insights and Aha! moments and thus the communities, the oral traditions and eventually the written traditions (i.e. the information) but all this followed the self-revealing, the self-giving of Jesus to them.

                    So there is information of sorts in all human encounters but our most meaningful relationships, the ones that impact us and our world in the most profound way are those relationship in which the other is continually giving him other self to us. The whole history that you describe above I see as the self-giving of God and our slow discernment (amidst setbacks) and insight that empowered mankind to move forward. But again, for me it is not evolution process which is a natural and an inevitable process, but, if you will, a transcendent process in which we are always (although sometimes not) responding to the call to be, be better, be best (as Humans).

                    My one big problem with the idea of such evolution is that if it truly was a natural, built-in, process we would be further along than we are (just as physically we are no longer what we evolved from). If such evolution is cyclical, then it appears any truly peak moments simply reoccur and then diminish once again. However, the religious hope is not endless reoccurrence but transcendence: a movement which we transcend the mundane as we move further into the sacred. Yet it is still a Hope.
                    Last edited by thormas; 10-17-2020, 10:48 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by thormas View Post

                      I understand revelation is not information. Rather, revelation is the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to humanity. Therefore I agree that creation and this timeless giving of Self by God is one process that empowers creation to achieve its fulfillment .......in and with Him.

                      I get the use of the word evolution but I don't use it when discussing the humanization of man (and the fulfillment of creation) - since it suggests a 'natural' movement. Rather I believe that without God there would be no humanization and no fulfillment. Or, put another way, man cannot do it on his own.
                      I am not sure this a matter of terminology o r a real difference concerning the relationship between God Creation and humanity. I fully acknowledge, sort of, that Revelation reflects the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to humanity, but I am uncomfortable with the wording as is. I consider it a bit anthropomorphic. I may respond more.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56


                        .
                        Last edited by thormas; 10-19-2020, 08:19 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          I am not sure this a matter of terminology o r a real difference concerning the relationship between God Creation and humanity. I fully acknowledge, sort of, that Revelation reflects the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to humanity, but I am uncomfortable with the wording as is. I consider it a bit anthropomorphic. I may respond more.
                          I get that but I guess I leaned to be a bit anthropomophic in my wording since it became the best way to truly explain things to teenagers when I taught. As a Christian I believe that man is born to be in relationship with God. So how better to get some insight into that relationship than to reflect on the relationships between human. We give information in our relationships but, most importantly, we give ourselves. And, in trust, the other gives him or herself.

                          God, I believe, is ever-present in the ordinary, everyday moments of life and I thinks his self-giving is so subtle that it is often missed but even if missed, it is essential to our growth as truly human beings. We cannot be without God, we cannot become human and have abundant life without God. And I think that some of us, reflecting on this 'experience' say "GOD' and have an AHA! moment. And when we write about it, we are revealing or uncovering the God in whom we live: this is revelation as information but the real revealing, first and always taking place, is God's giving (gift) of Self.

                          And of course the revelation is worthless unless we hear,understand and respond (i.e. faith) and then live conscious of the God who is Immanuel. I

                          At least I think :+}
                          Last edited by thormas; 10-19-2020, 08:24 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            I get that but I guess I leaned to be a bit anthropomophic in my wording since it became the best way to truly explain things to teenagers when I taught. As a Christian I believe that man is born to be in relationship with God. So how better to get some insight into that relationship than to reflect on the relationships between human. We give information in our relationships but, most importantly, we give ourselves. And, in trust, the other gives him or herself.

                            God, I believe, is ever-present in the ordinary, everyday moments of life and I thinks his self-giving is so subtle that it is often missed but even if missed, it is essential to our growth as truly human beings. We cannot be without God, we cannot become human and have abundant life without God. And I think that some of us, reflecting on this 'experience' say "GOD' and have an AHA! moment. And when we write about it, we are revealing or uncovering the God in whom we live: this is revelation as information but the real revealing, first and always taking place, is God's giving (gift) of Self.

                            And of course the revelation is worthless unless we hear,understand and respond (i.e. faith) and then live conscious of the God who is Immanuel. I

                            At least I think :+}
                            We differ here on the specificity of what is claimed by different religions and divisions there of concerning their scriptures. There are too many conflicts and contradictions in the claims of different beliefs to be consistent in what we hear, read, believe and understand. .This is in part the reason why I put the different religions and the scriptures in the context of the culture and the time, and propose a more universal context of the knowledge of Revelation that can come through individuals as well as scriptures of the religions. The context of Revelation through individuals is not the claim of Revelation as many claim, but knowledge of the universal. One aspect of this Revelation is the evolving knowledge of science.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment

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