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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Under the law versus under the gospel of grace.
    So it is, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:21. So the requested qualification does make a difference.
    Its definitely about obedience. Romans 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Even if there were only two. The requested qualification is still relevant. A short list Catholic\orthodox\protestant\baptist\. . . \Mormon\Jehovah's witnesses\ . . . etc.
      As I said, it was a digression. It wasn't really meant to address whatever point you're making (which I'm not sure I totally get anyways).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        The punishment is Hell without God.
        Yes. Also known as death. Otherwise, Romans 6:23 is not true.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
          but for most evangelical Christians, salvation is also about the more than abundant life in the here and now.
          The notion that righteous living is an effective way to enrich one's present life is hardly unique to Christianity.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            The notion that righteous living is an effective way to enrich one's present life is hardly unique to Christianity.
            What's your point?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
              What's your point?
              That it is not a specifically Christian teaching and therefore not specifically related to salvation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Joel View Post
                You may not believe in the "whom" or "from what", or think they are "weird", but that doesn't change the fact that Christians are using the word "saved" according to its normal definition (of being saved by someone from something).
                (Also Christians say that the payoff begins immediately, not only post-mortem, but that's perhaps another discussion.)

                By using the term in a non-standard way (without a "by whom/what" or "from what") you are engaging in equivocation.
                The equivocation of the religious meaning of ' to save, saved, salvation,' is on your shoulders. In fact the word 'salvation' has no meaningful use in the secular world. 'To save, salvation, and saved' in the differing various definitions of Christian denominations bears no resemblance to the secular definitions of what it means 'to save' or 'be saved' in the secular use of the word is which has a purely well defined physical and other secular meanings in the real world of human affairs with no reference to afterlife considerations nor spiritual issues.



                The consensus seems to be:
                saved by: God
                saved from: sin, death, and estrangement from God.
                This definition and concept has no relationship to the secular world use of the verb 'to save.'.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-08-2014, 08:30 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                  That it is not a specifically Christian teaching and therefore not specifically related to salvation.
                  That doesn't follow.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    The equivocation of the religious meaning of ' to save, saved, salvation,' is on your shoulders. In fact the word 'salvation' has no meaningful use in the secular world. 'To save, salvation, and saved' in the differing various definitions of Christian denominations bears no resemblance to the secular definitions of what it means 'to save' or 'be saved' in the secular use of the word is which has a purely well defined physical and other secular meanings in the real world of human affairs with no reference to afterlife considerations nor spiritual issues.




                    This definition and concept has no relationship to the secular world use of the verb 'to save.'.
                    What you're saying is nonsense. Just because the word "salvation" or "saved" is being applied to a particular situation in Christian belief does not mean that the same word doesn't resemble the secular definition. Its the same word with the same meaning regardless of its application. The word "salvation" and "saved" has the same meaning in the Christian faith as it does the Baha'i faith even if salvation is obtained in different ways (though maybe not so different as some would think). So if you're going to say the Christian meaning of the word has no resemblance to the secular meaning, you're going to have to say the same about its use in the Baha'i faith as well.

                    The world will pass away, and so will all the things whereat your hearts rejoice, or wherein ye pride yourselves before men. Cleanse the mirrors of your hearts from the dross of the world and all that is therein, that they may reflect the resplendent light of God. This, indeed, shall enable you to dispense with all save God, and to attain unto the good pleasure of your Lord, the Most Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. We, verily, have unfolded before your eyes that which shall profit you both in this world and in the realm of faith, and which will lead you to the path of salvation. Would that ye might turn thereunto! - Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 208
                    That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.
                    No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God’s hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path. - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh pg. 75-76
                    Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
                    We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
                    Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

                    Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.
                    Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.
                    Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful. - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh pg. 85-87
                    Considering this most mighty enterprise, it beseemeth them that love Him to gird up the loins of their endeavor, and to fix their thoughts on whatever will ensure the victory of the cause of God, rather than commit vile and contemptible deeds. Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein. - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh pg. 243
                    Last edited by OingoBoingo; 03-08-2014, 01:40 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                      What you're saying is nonsense. Just because the word "salvation" or "saved" is being applied to a particular situation in Christian belief does not mean that the same word doesn't resemble the secular definition. Its the same word with the same meaning regardless of its application. The word "salvation" and "saved" has the same meaning in the Christian faith as it does the Baha'i faith even if salvation is obtained in different ways (though maybe not so different as some would think). So if you're going to say the Christian meaning of the word has no resemblance to the secular meaning, you're going to have to say the same about its use in the Baha'i faith as well.
                      No it is not the same concerning the secular world. The Baha'i Faith is a religion and uses a theistic definition of these words, tough somewhat different to the christen view, and less exclusive. The point is the secular use of the words which bare no resemblance to the theists use of the word.

                      Good quotes from the Baha'i writings.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-08-2014, 03:17 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        No it is not the same concerning the secular world. The Baha'i Faith is a religion and uses a theistic definition of these words, tough somewhat different to the christen view, and less exclusive. The point is the secular use of the words which bare no resemblance to the theists use of the word.
                        You're wrong. They are the same words with the same meaning, just applied to different circumstances/scenarios. They mean the exact same thing. If someone throws me a life preserver after my boat goes down in the middle of the ocean, they have saved me. They are my salvation. If I believe I'm drowning in the ocean of a mundane life, followed by eternal death, and a divine being offers me an abundant and eternal life through faithfulness in him, he has saved me. He is my salvation.

                        Good quotes from the Baha'i writings.
                        Yes, I found them highly interesting.
                        Last edited by OingoBoingo; 03-08-2014, 03:33 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                          You're wrong. They are the same words with the same meaning, just applied to different circumstances/scenarios. They mean the exact same thing. If someone throws me a life preserver after my boat goes down in the middle of the ocean, they have saved me. They are my salvation. If I believe I'm drowning in the ocean of a mundane life, followed by eternal death, and a divine being offers me an abundant and eternal life through faithfulness in him, he has saved me. He is my salvation.
                          .
                          Well here we will have to just agree to disagree. The verb 'to save,' saved, and salvation' are used decidedly in a very different mundane context, and decidedly different from the theistic context, or the Buddhist and other Oriental context. Jews would hardly come close to Christians as what it means, and neither would Muslims from the theist perspective.

                          I believe it is helpful in communication to accept the differences in definitions. The separation of definitions even between the various religions and churches would prevent confusion and equivocation of meanings.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-08-2014, 05:31 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Well here we will have to just agree to disagree. The verb 'to save,' saved, and salvation' are used decidedly in a very different mundane context, and decidedly different from the theistic context, or the Buddhist and other Oriental context. Jews would hardly come close to Christians as what it means, and neither would Muslims from the theist perspective.

                            I believe it is helpful in communication to accept the differences in definitions. The separation of definitions even between the various religions and churches would prevent confusion and equivocation of meanings.
                            Give us an example of use in the secular world, please.
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                              That doesn't follow.
                              No, I guess it doesn't.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                                Give us an example of use in the secular world, please.
                                Verb 'to save, saved' - "A penny saved is a penny earned." Benjamin Franklin.

                                "Save your pennies, and watch your dollars grow."

                                'salvation' - "The emergency loan was the salvation of the company."

                                Firstfloor used it at the beginning of thread with a heavy dose of sarcasm, meaning that there is no such thing as salvation in the spiritual sense, and we are all in the same boat together.

                                Second thought I believe there is a use in the secular world as well as the atheist/agnostic world. 'The future generations of humanity represent our immorality in this world and the salvation of the future of humanity. This similar to the Confucian view where 'The honor and respect of ancestors and elders insures the honor and respect of future generation, and thus the salvation of the Chinese civilization.'

                                I have not heard this used specifically, but it is logical considering the purpose of morals and ethics in the Confucian philosophy in the East, Zen in Japan, and Western the predominant view in the atheist/agnostic west.



                                "To Follow by faith alone is to follow blindly." Benjamin Franklin
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-09-2014, 06:04 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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