Originally posted by Gary
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Gary View PostNo Protestant believes that the "tomb" that Empress Helena "identified" as the tomb of Jesus is the tomb of Jesus. If there ever was a tomb, its location is lost. The question is: Why?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostAnd yet the Christian Historians in the 4th century say they did know where it was because in the second century, when Hadrian REBUILT the city that had been completely DESTROYED he deliberately plonked down temples to Aphrodite and Jupiter on the Christian Holy Sites. (much like the Muslims plonked a Mosque down on the Temple Mount.)
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
Ok, a correction first. Helena did actually seek the tomb in the *4th* century, not the 3rd like I said before. My apologies.
Gary, you used the witness of the Bible to establish your views on Pilate, the trial, and the death of Jesus. Then you refused to use the same witness of the Bible to establish the burial, empty tomb, and the reactions of believers and unbelievers alike.
Can't have it both ways.
I used one passage to show that another is impossible. Big difference.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhy? The gilt and liturgical trappings at the Church of the Resurrection (aka Holy Sepulchre) tend to make Protestants of a non-liturgical tradition uncomfortable. So a Protestant in the late 19th century picked another spot (the so-called "Garden Tomb") as the actual site, but not a single scholar agrees with him. As I have pointed out before (and others have pointed out here), the tomb was not venerated at least in part because a pagan temple was built on top of it. Attitudes also changed in the 4th century regarding the veneration of holy places in general. I know you won't read it, but this is spelled out in P.W.L. Walker's Holy City, Holy Places.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostPlease provide quotes from anyone in the first or second century who mention anything about the location of the Empty Tomb or that people had been venerating the tomb since the day it had been found empty.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostPlease provide a legitimate reason why people needed to write down a location, in a predominantly oral society, in order to remember it.
Why did they need to write the Gospels then?
Why didn't Peter say anything about the Empty Tomb during his sermon on Pentecost? Thousands and thousands of people are converting in Jerusalem...but then a few decades later, no one knows where the dead leader's tomb is.
Baloney.
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I forgot to mention: An unheard of before or since solar eclipse of three hours occurs on the day of this man's death....and...two earthquakes, dead people roaming the streets, the appearance of angels, Temple veil tears down the middle, the dead man appears to over five hundred people in multiple locations in Judea and Galilee, and then a crowd watches him levitate into the clouds...
but a few decades later...everyone forgets the location of his tomb!
Fiction, folks! The Empty Tomb tale is an obvious work of fiction! Only someone who really, really, really wants to believe it is true is going to buy this tall tale.
Now Pigster (and I'm sure Nick) will claim that that first century Christians didn't need to write this down as everyone maintained its location by oral tradition. Ok. But how about later when Christians were writing things down? Where are the statements in the late second century about Christians traveling to Jerusalem to visit the Empty Tomb? And don't give me any evangelical baloney that Christians of that time did not venerate holy places and holy relics. We know they did.
Why the complete and utter silence as to the location of the greatest event to have ever occurred on planet Earth???????
And why did they eventually forget it's location?Last edited by Gary; 05-18-2016, 12:00 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostSpin, spin, spin.
Why did they need to write the Gospels then?
Why didn't Peter say anything about the Empty Tomb during his sermon on Pentecost? Thousands and thousands of people are converting in Jerusalem...but then a few decades later, no one knows where the dead leader's tomb is.
Baloney.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View PostSpin, spin, spin.
Why did they need to write the Gospels then?
Why didn't Peter say anything about the Empty Tomb during his sermon on Pentecost?
Thousands and thousands of people are converting in Jerusalem...but then a few decades later, no one knows where the dead leader's tomb is.
Baloney.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostPeter did mention the empty tomb on Pentecost. Acts 2:24-32.
24 But God raised him up, having freed him from death,[a] because it was impossible for him to be held in its power. 25 For David says concerning him,
‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken;
26
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
moreover my flesh will live in hope.
27
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One experience corruption.
28
You have made known to me the ways of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites,[b] I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David[c] spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah,[d] saying,
‘He was not abandoned to Hades,
nor did his flesh experience corruption.’
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses.
Gary: Nope. No mention of an Empty Tomb.
(You are assuming that when Peter says that God had "raised him up" that this means "raised him up from Arimathea's hand-hewn family rock mausoleum". It says no such thing. Skeptics do not dispute that the earliest Christians believed that God had raised Jesus up from whereever his dead remains had been located; to then appear to them, and then go to heaven. We dispute that the earliest Christians knew of a hand-hewn rock mausoleum. Paul never mentions an "empty tomb".)Last edited by Gary; 05-18-2016, 12:13 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View Post(You are assuming that when Peter says that God had "raised him up" that this means "raised him up from Arimathea's hand-hewn family rock mausoleum". It says no such thing. Skeptics do not dispute that the earliest Christians believed that God had raised Jesus up from whereever his dead remains had been located; to then appear to them, and then go to heaven. We dispute that the earliest Christians knew of a hand-hewn rock mausoleum. Paul never mentions an "empty tomb".)Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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And as OBP pointed out, Peter certainly said a lot more than what was written down...v 40: "And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them,..." plus the witnesses of the risen Jesus who had been with them 40 days before he ascended (some of them firsthand witnesses of the empty tomb) certainly knew where to find the tomb.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGee, which is easier to remember - a location, or the distillation of 3 years of teaching and events?
Peter certainly made the claim that Jesus had been raised from the dead; that the tomb in which he had been buried was therefore empty is sort of a no-brainer. On the other hand, do you think that ancient people were stupid and gullible, and without knowing anything other than what Peter said in 2 minutes, they converted? Peter certainly said more that was recorded, and the crowd would certainly have been cognizant of recent events.
Yes, your idea that no one knew where the tomb was a few decades later is indeed baloney.
What is more important is that Paul never mentions an Empty Tomb in his seven epistles nor does any other early Christian writer mention the location of this tomb in their writings.
It never existed
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