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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

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  • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I'm still baffled by this thread.

    Even if we allow that Jesus wasn't buried in a tomb it would make no substantive difference to Christian theology.
    Resurrected from a tomb, from an open pit, from a 21st century morgue - the claim of His resurrection is what matters not the location of His resurrection.

    Regardless, I wish you'd trot over to 'The Drama Club' (I invited you in a PM) and share your deconversion story.
    Not to sell anything - your reasons don't have to be rational - but I'm always interested in those accounts for some reason.
    I'm always more interested in people's deeply personal reasons and less interested in the rationale they built up after they've already left the faith.

    Cheers.
    It would only make a difference to those Christians such as Nick and Drifty who feel the need to PROVE the historicity of the bodily resurrection of Jesus with "evidence". If you are one of the many millions of Christians who believes in Jesus' resurrection by faith, this thread is irrelevant to you.

    Skeptics cannot prove "faith" to be false. However, we can demonstrate very well that the conservative Christian claim that a bodily resurrection is the most probable explanation for the early Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection is nothing more than hot air. There are many very probable/plausible, natural/non-miracle explanations for this ancient belief. If Christians like Nick and Drifter would just admit that, we could all go home and have a beer in peace and utter tranquility.

    Regarding my Deconversion Story. If I told you that I deconverted due to the evidence, you wouldn't believe me. You would not accept any excuse for "abandoning the loving Savior" other than ones that fit your belief system: sin; anger at God; anger at my pastor/church, etc.
    Last edited by Gary; 05-18-2016, 03:48 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      It would only make a difference to those Christians such as Nick and Drifty who feel the need to PROVE the historicity of the bodily resurrection of Jesus with "evidence". If you are one of the many millions of Christians who believes in Jesus' resurrection by faith, this thread is irrelevant to you.
      I believe Jesus rose from the dead.
      I don't see how that is impacted by where he was buried.
      It may impact it, I just don't see it.

      Originally posted by Gary View Post
      Regarding my Deconversion Story. If I told you that I deconverted due to the evidence, you wouldn't believe me. You would not accept any excuse for "abandoning the loving Savior" other than ones that fit your belief system: sin; anger at God; anger at my pastor/church, etc.
      If you shared the first evidence that led to your deconversion that might be interesting.
      Don't waste time making a case for it, just share what was going on in your noggin'.
      Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
        It seems the apologists are making the (mistaken) assertion that resurrection always meant a physical body must have literally gotten up and left an empty grave behind. This is not the case as Jewish resurrection and afterlife belief in the 2nd Temple Period was quite diverse. There was no necessary connection between resurrection and a person's tomb being empty. Here's a very good overview of the sources on pages 31-40 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
        That source seems heavily biased toward the minority gnostic position, lending it rather more credence than it deserves.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
          I believe Jesus rose from the dead.
          I don't see how that is impacted by where he was buried.
          It may impact it, I just don't see it.

          If you shared the first evidence that led to your deconversion that might be interesting.
          Don't waste time making a case for it, just share what was going on in your noggin'.
          If it does not matter to you that there is no evidence that there was an empty tomb or grave, that is fine. This point is VERY important to Nick and Drifty, however.

          Why does it matter to me that they hold this position? Answer: Because some Christians use this alleged evidence to threaten non-Christians with negative consequences for not believing their supernatural belief system. I believe that this type of supernatural belief is bad for humankind and am working along with other rationalists to debunk it.

          My Deconversion in five seconds: One day as a devout conservative Christian I came across the website of an ex-Christian pastor turned atheist. I tried to "win him back to Jesus". He tried to show me why he had deconverted. After a four month discussion, he was still an atheist and I was an agnostic.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gary View Post
            No, because if I simply said that the Gospels are entirely unreliable, conservative Christians would treat me like a mythicist and not engage in discussion with me. I attempt to use some of your superstitions to demonstrate that other of your superstitions are false in an overall attempt to rescue you from your deadly ancient cult.

            Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              That source seems heavily biased toward the minority gnostic position, lending it rather more credence than it deserves.
              I'm sorry? How does actually reading what the contemporary sources say somehow imply a bias towards gnostic beliefs? The sources say what they say and thus show that resurrection beliefs were diverse during this time period. You'll notice that one of the sections actually does speak of physical "bodily" resurrection. There's no bias here, just an objective overview of the relevant material.
              Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-18-2016, 06:24 PM.

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              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Your credibility is shot, and no one cares to waste their time arguing with you. Sorry.
                Says the guy who keeps using a thoroughly debunked response to the argument in this thread - http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post320403 You only ever seem to muster up the courage to respond every 3 days or so but it seems as if it's in order to maintain the pride of having the last word rather than an actually addressing the problems with your rebuttal.

                Anyway, it's clear by now that the White Knight Apologist© "Juice" has been scared off because he underestimated the force of the arguments I've presented. Since all the arguments still stand and have withstood criticism, I'm forced to take that as a compliment. Let me know if you actually get around to addressing the arguments. I won't hold my breath though...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  If it does not matter to you that there is no evidence that there was an empty tomb or grave, that is fine. This point is VERY important to Nick and Drifty, however.

                  Why does it matter to me that they hold this position? Answer: Because some Christians use this alleged evidence to threaten non-Christians with negative consequences for not believing their supernatural belief system. I believe that this type of supernatural belief is bad for humankind and am working along with other rationalists to debunk it.
                  The 'threat' approach to evangelism seems to run counter to the Gospel (Good News).
                  The ridiculous state of Christianity in the U.S.A. probably has something to do with that approach.

                  Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  My Deconversion in five seconds: One day as a devout conservative Christian I came across the website of an ex-Christian pastor turned atheist. I tried to "win him back to Jesus". He tried to show me why he had deconverted. After a four month discussion, he was still an atheist and I was an agnostic.
                  What was the 'oh crap' moment?
                  Was there a particular piece of evidence or argument that really impacted you?
                  Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                  Comment


                  • Juice was always a blowhard.
                    Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                      The 'threat' approach to evangelism seems to run counter to the Gospel (Good News).
                      The ridiculous state of Christianity in the U.S.A. probably has something to do with that approach.

                      What was the 'oh crap' moment?
                      Was there a particular piece of evidence or argument that really impacted you?
                      I was raised a fundamentalist Baptist preacher's kid. I was taught that the Bible contained no errors even in history. And even though the original manuscripts no longer exist, I was taught that God would preserve his Word in the copies, in the original languages, that still exist. Errors in translation were possible, but not in the original language copies.

                      The atheist ex-Christian pastor got tired of my relentless attempts to "bring him back to Christ". He finally told me that unless I would read three books by Bart Ehrman he would not continue the discussion with me. Reluctantly, I agreed. I read the first Ehrman book and was shocked to find that there are blatant scribal additions and deletions in all the copies of the Bible that we have today. I couldn't believe it. The ones that bothered me the most were the following:

                      The Johannine Commae
                      The story of the Woman taken in Adultery
                      the story of the Angel stirring the pool of Bethesda.
                      The addition of a longer ending to the Gospel of Mark

                      It was unimaginable to me that God would allow these changes to his Holy Word. I went to my pastor and to other pastors of my denomination who assured me that these scribal changes made no difference whatsoever to overall Christian teaching. I was finally able to accept their reassurance, which was basically this: There are no SIGNIFICANT errors in the Bible which affect any major teaching of the Christian Faith. I should not be troubled that a sloppy or overzealous scribe deleted/added to the Bible.

                      Ok. I can accept that...but what about everything else?

                      So I started looking at the six resurrection accounts in the Gospels, Acts, and I Corinthians 15. Most of the "discrepancies" were insignificant, but some of them really bothered me, for instance whether or not Jesus commanded the disciples to go to Galilee or stay in Jerusalem; whether Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover or the Day of Preparation for Passover; and the two stories of Judas Iscariot and his death. I just did not find the Christian harmonizations for these stories believable. I again went to the pastors of my denomination. I was told that even if there were some minor discrepancies in these stories they still did not change the fundamental facts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. It was ok if there were minor errors.

                      Now I was starting to get nervous. Well, what else am I going to find out is not quite true?

                      I then studied the archeological evidence for the Exodus, Forty Years in the Sinai, and the Conquest. I had always assumed these stories to be historical events, but to my surprise, there is no good evidence for the literal Biblical accounts of these events, and in fact most archeologists believe that the Bible stories about these events are myths.

                      Wow! But Jesus proclaimed himself to be the Passover Lamb. How could Jesus do that and know (since he was God) that the Passover story was a fictional event??

                      Very disturbing.

                      Then I studied the Doctrine of Hell. I came to realize that the people in the first 2/3 of the Old Testament had no concept of an Afterlife, and definitely no Hell. "Sheol" was the grave, not a pit of eternal torment.

                      That was probably the last straw. I and my family abruptly stopped going to church and we haven't been back since. My wife is a nominal Roman Catholic who never wanted to go to church anyway and my children are very young, so it was not a major life change to them. I continue to find issues with the Bible and Christian teaching, such as that the Book of Daniel is probably a fraud written in Jerusalem during the Greek occupation of Palestine, not written by a Jewish prince named Daniel writing during the times of the Babylonians and Persians. I also studied messianic prophecies...from a Jewish perspective and was able to see that not one "prophecy" about Jesus is about Jesus, and on and on.

                      Let me finish by saying that the four months prior to my deconversion were agonizing. I loved my Christian faith. I was very happy in it. I did not want to lose it. But I did. As much as I wanted to continue believing I could not. The evidence was overwhelming that my cherished faith was nothing but a superstition.
                      Last edited by Gary; 05-19-2016, 01:15 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Gary,
                        In a thread in 'The Drama Club' I mention one of the problems I have with fundamentalism.
                        One of those problems is the idolization of the Bible - where it is ascribed a level of perfection that it doesn't claim for itself.

                        I read a commentary on Revelations where the passage that describes the number of the beast is thought to be an inclusion.
                        When you compare it to the tenor and tone of the rest of the book it becomes rather clear that someone added it.
                        In short, I agree with you that there are likely some inclusions in Scripture.
                        That would match the imperfection of the testimony of creation and of other people.

                        Given your experience I'd say that your deconversion story seems pretty rational to me.
                        I appreciate you putting it to virtual paper.

                        -Meh Gerbil
                        Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                          Anyway, it's clear by now that the White Knight Apologist© "Juice" has been scared off because he underestimated the force of the arguments I've presented.
                          Er, don't you mean the arguments you plagiarized from Carrier?

                          Rhinstone, you remind me of the Black Night.



                          I'll be back to lop your legs off later.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                            Says the guy who keeps using a thoroughly debunked response to the argument in this thread - http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post320403 You only ever seem to muster up the courage to respond every 3 days or so but it seems as if it's in order to maintain the pride of having the last word rather than an actually addressing the problems with your rebuttal.

                            Anyway, it's clear by now that the White Knight Apologist© "Juice" has been scared off because he underestimated the force of the arguments I've presented. Since all the arguments still stand and have withstood criticism, I'm forced to take that as a compliment. Let me know if you actually get around to addressing the arguments. I won't hold my breath though...
                            You're trying really hard to pretend you didn't rely on Carrier, aren't you?

                            Kudos for aping my dismissal of you, though.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                              I'm sorry? How does actually reading what the contemporary sources say somehow imply a bias towards gnostic beliefs? The sources say what they say and thus show that resurrection beliefs were diverse during this time period. You'll notice that one of the sections actually does speak of physical "bodily" resurrection. There's no bias here, just an objective overview of the relevant material.
                              Hardly objective; scholars can be just as good as others at reading into a text what they want to see, and are much better at giving it a plausible veneer. And the gnostic material is rather later than even the "latest" of the canonical material; it's not so much that Paul is ambiguous, that the gnostics read their preconceived notions into Paul. N.T. Wright, in The Resurrection of the Son of God, goes rather in depth in showing the rationale behind the belief in a physical resurrection. The book I'm now reading also confirms a physical resurrection:
                              Source: John McHugh

                              To understand [the narrative of the raising of Lazarus], it is essential to recognize that John is here using the term "resurrection" in the way contemporary Pharisees used it, in line with Dan 12:2. They thought of a human being as a psycho-somatic unity, not as a composite of body and soul; even texts which speak of a "soul" do not regard that soul as a spiritual being, capable of an immortal existence when separated from the body, but only as a life-giving principle quickening the body, which ceases to function at death. It is almost exactly the opposite of the Platonic concept of the immortal soul, as reflected, for example, in the book of Wisdom. The Pharisees did, however, most firmly believe that "at the time of the end" (Dan 12:9), "at the end of days" (Dan 12:13), "at the last day" (Jn 11:24) the dead would reawaken to consciousness, and return to a fully integrated life, both of body and mind". This much is fundamental for understanding the story about the raising of Lazarus.

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              "In Him Was Life", Jews and Christians: the parting of the ways A.D. 70 to 135, ed. James D. G. Dunn, pg. 152

                              It is the idea of a purely spiritual resurrection, not a physical resurrection, which is later in time and influenced by Greek philosophy.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • I was under the impression that the word anastasia (resurrection) only made sense if that which actually died was also raised from the dead.

                                I've seen this as a rebuttal for the JW's 'spirit creature' claim.
                                If Jesus was simply replaced with a spirit form then it wouldn't be a resurrection any more than replacing my wrecked Ford Escort with a Jeep Wrangler was a resurrection.

                                I'm not a Greek scholar.
                                This is just an apologetic I've seen.
                                Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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