Originally posted by Meh Gerbil
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by Gary View PostHow do I know that your grandmother was buried in a casket? Maybe she was murdered during WWII by the Nazis and her body was dumped into a common, mass grave. Maybe the only reason you believe that she has been physically resurrected is because she "appeared" to you last night by the side of your bed.
CONTEXT: testimony is that this Jesus was buried in a tomb. Prove he's still in the tomb! Or elsewhere!Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI and many scholars doubt the historicity of the alleged events on Pentecost.
What is more important is that Paul never mentions an Empty Tomb in his seven epistles nor does any other early Christian writer mention the location of this tomb in their writings.
It never existedWatch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostSo you do agree context is important!
CONTEXT: testimony is that this Jesus was buried in a tomb. Prove he's still in the tomb! Or elsewhere!
For the hypothetical situation with your grandmother, we have the testimony of known members of your family and members of the community in which this massacre occurred who give sworn testimony that your grandmother's body was seen tossed into a mass grave and covered over by the Nazis. So your grandmother was buried, just not in a casket.
Maybe this is what happened to Jesus. People saw what was left of the body of Jesus taken down from the cross by the Romans and tossed into a mass grave with other persons crucified that week, and then covered over with dirt. So Jesus was buried, he just wasn't buried in Arimathea's rock tomb. If people later believed that Jesus had appeared to them, they believed that he could have only done so if God had raised him (from his common dirt grave shared with multiple other decomposing bodies) from the dead.Last edited by Gary; 05-18-2016, 12:41 PM.
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It seems the apologists are making the (mistaken) assertion that resurrection always meant a physical body must have literally gotten up and left an empty grave behind. This is not the case as Jewish resurrection and afterlife belief in the 2nd Temple Period was quite diverse. There was no necessary connection between resurrection and a person's tomb being empty. Here's a very good overview of the sources on pages 31-40 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostIt seems the apologists are making the (mistaken) assertion that resurrection always meant a physical body must have literally gotten up and left an empty grave behind. This is not the case as Jewish resurrection and afterlife belief in the 2nd Temple Period was quite diverse. There was no necessary connection between resurrection and a person's tomb being empty. Here's a very good overview of the sources on pages 31-40 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDo you have the confirmed names and testimonies of eyewitnesses to this event?Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostThe claim is that Thomas saw the hands and side of a crucifixion victim.
Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.
gospels to be written and since there's no sign of this amazing story (or anything even like it) in any of the earliest preaching, we have
sufficient reason to conclude that this is later legendary embellishment. The later gospel authors (especially Luke and John) clearly believed
in a physical resurrection that involved the resuscitation of Jesus' corpse. However, that view is certainly not found in Paul, the earliest
Christian preaching.Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-18-2016, 01:00 PM.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostYou can't have it both ways Gary. Either argue from within the text, or outside it.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostAnd as OBP pointed out, Peter certainly said a lot more than what was written down...v 40: "And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them,..." plus the witnesses of the risen Jesus who had been with them 40 days before he ascended (some of them firsthand witnesses of the empty tomb) certainly knew where to find the tomb.
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostThe claim is that Thomas saw the hands and side of a crucifixion victim.
Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostDo you?
Yes, we have five affidavits of five known people from the village in which your grandmother was killed who give corroborating testimony about her death and burial in a mass grave outside of the village, which still exists today and can be visited.
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostThe Doubting Thomas story only appears in the Gospel of John which most scholars date between 90-110 CE. This was the last of the gospels to be written and since there's no sign of this amazing story (or anything even like it) in any of the earliest preaching, we have
sufficient reason to conclude that this is later legendary embellishment. The later gospel authors (especially Luke and John) clearly believed
in a physical resurrection that involved the resuscitation of Jesus' corpse. However, that view is certainly not found in Paul, the earliest
Christian preaching.
This clears up your initial "billions and billions of types of resurrection" thingy.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Gary View PostHow many of the Gospels record this event with Thomas?
One account establishes the type of resurrection in question.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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