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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

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  • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    So if I claimed that my grandmother was physically resurrected from the grave you wouldn't see that as a statement that her casket was empty?
    How do I know that your grandmother was buried in a casket? Maybe she was murdered during WWII by the Nazis and her body was dumped into a common, mass grave. Maybe the only reason you believe that she has been physically resurrected is because she "appeared" to you last night by the side of your bed.

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    • Originally posted by Gary View Post
      How do I know that your grandmother was buried in a casket? Maybe she was murdered during WWII by the Nazis and her body was dumped into a common, mass grave. Maybe the only reason you believe that she has been physically resurrected is because she "appeared" to you last night by the side of your bed.
      So you do agree context is important!

      CONTEXT: testimony is that this Jesus was buried in a tomb. Prove he's still in the tomb! Or elsewhere!
      Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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      • Originally posted by Gary View Post
        I and many scholars doubt the historicity of the alleged events on Pentecost.

        What is more important is that Paul never mentions an Empty Tomb in his seven epistles nor does any other early Christian writer mention the location of this tomb in their writings.

        It never existed
        You can't have it both ways Gary. Either argue from within the text, or outside it.
        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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        • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          So you do agree context is important!

          CONTEXT: testimony is that this Jesus was buried in a tomb. Prove he's still in the tomb! Or elsewhere!
          Do you have the confirmed names and testimonies of eyewitnesses to this event?

          For the hypothetical situation with your grandmother, we have the testimony of known members of your family and members of the community in which this massacre occurred who give sworn testimony that your grandmother's body was seen tossed into a mass grave and covered over by the Nazis. So your grandmother was buried, just not in a casket.

          Maybe this is what happened to Jesus. People saw what was left of the body of Jesus taken down from the cross by the Romans and tossed into a mass grave with other persons crucified that week, and then covered over with dirt. So Jesus was buried, he just wasn't buried in Arimathea's rock tomb. If people later believed that Jesus had appeared to them, they believed that he could have only done so if God had raised him (from his common dirt grave shared with multiple other decomposing bodies) from the dead.
          Last edited by Gary; 05-18-2016, 12:41 PM.

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          • It seems the apologists are making the (mistaken) assertion that resurrection always meant a physical body must have literally gotten up and left an empty grave behind. This is not the case as Jewish resurrection and afterlife belief in the 2nd Temple Period was quite diverse. There was no necessary connection between resurrection and a person's tomb being empty. Here's a very good overview of the sources on pages 31-40 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

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            • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
              Peter did mention the empty tomb on Pentecost. Acts 2:24-32.
              I don't see "empty tomb" anywhere in there.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                It seems the apologists are making the (mistaken) assertion that resurrection always meant a physical body must have literally gotten up and left an empty grave behind. This is not the case as Jewish resurrection and afterlife belief in the 2nd Temple Period was quite diverse. There was no necessary connection between resurrection and a person's tomb being empty. Here's a very good overview of the sources on pages 31-40 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false
                The claim is that Thomas saw the hands and side of a crucifixion victim.
                Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.
                Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                  Do you have the confirmed names and testimonies of eyewitnesses to this event?
                  Do you?
                  Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                    The claim is that Thomas saw the hands and side of a crucifixion victim.
                    Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.
                    The Doubting Thomas story only appears in the Gospel of John which most scholars date between 90-110 CE. This was the last of the
                    gospels to be written and since there's no sign of this amazing story (or anything even like it) in any of the earliest preaching, we have
                    sufficient reason to conclude that this is later legendary embellishment. The later gospel authors (especially Luke and John) clearly believed
                    in a physical resurrection that involved the resuscitation of Jesus' corpse. However, that view is certainly not found in Paul, the earliest
                    Christian preaching.
                    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-18-2016, 01:00 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                      You can't have it both ways Gary. Either argue from within the text, or outside it.
                      No, because if I simply said that the Gospels are entirely unreliable, conservative Christians would treat me like a mythicist and not engage in discussion with me. I attempt to use some of your superstitions to demonstrate that other of your superstitions are false in an overall attempt to rescue you from your deadly ancient cult.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                        And as OBP pointed out, Peter certainly said a lot more than what was written down...v 40: "And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them,..." plus the witnesses of the risen Jesus who had been with them 40 days before he ascended (some of them firsthand witnesses of the empty tomb) certainly knew where to find the tomb.
                        How do you know this?

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                        • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                          The claim is that Thomas saw the hands and side of a crucifixion victim.
                          Now I understand you don't believe that happened but it does clear up what type of resurrection that is claimed by the text.
                          How many of the Gospels record this event with Thomas?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                            Do you?

                            Yes, we have five affidavits of five known people from the village in which your grandmother was killed who give corroborating testimony about her death and burial in a mass grave outside of the village, which still exists today and can be visited.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                              The Doubting Thomas story only appears in the Gospel of John which most scholars date between 90-110 CE. This was the last of the gospels to be written and since there's no sign of this amazing story (or anything even like it) in any of the earliest preaching, we have
                              sufficient reason to conclude that this is later legendary embellishment. The later gospel authors (especially Luke and John) clearly believed
                              in a physical resurrection that involved the resuscitation of Jesus' corpse. However, that view is certainly not found in Paul, the earliest
                              Christian preaching.
                              Regardless, the type of resurrection claimed has been established.
                              This clears up your initial "billions and billions of types of resurrection" thingy.
                              Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Gary View Post
                                How many of the Gospels record this event with Thomas?
                                Irrelevant.
                                One account establishes the type of resurrection in question.
                                Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                                Comment

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