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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by Gary View PostFour sources, yes.
But we know that two of them blatantly and extensively plagiarized the first.
The fourth book was written many decades after the first, therefore it is very probable that the author of John had read/heard the stories as told in the first book (Mark) and simply adapted the core story of the Passion into his book, adding his own details. The point is: These are NOT independent sources.
It is very possible that the original story of a guy named Joseph of Arimathea burying Jesus in his rock tomb is a theological invention of the author of the Gospel of Mark. I can't prove it was, but Christians cannot prove it wasn't.
Mark: Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Luke: Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council, 51 had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Matthew: When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who was also a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus; then Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
John: Afterward Joseph of Arimathea, who had been a secret disciple of Jesus (because he feared the Jewish leaders), asked Pilate for permission to take down Jesus' body. When Pilate gave permission, Joseph came and took the body away.
There is zero suggestion in Mark and Luke that Joseph was a disciple of Jesus. I would bet that "whopper-teller" Matthew invented this detail (along with the "tomb guards" and the "street roaming dead saints" stories) and the author of John adapted Matthew's invention into his gospel.
Your historical methodology is seriously flawed.
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Originally posted by Juice View PostYou don't know this. Markan priority combined with a two-source explanation is one working explanation. Another explanation is the two-Gospel theory where Mark used Matthew and Luke.
With that criteria very little from antiquity could be considered independently attested since most sources suffer the same dilemma. That is, one source predates another by decades and so on down the line. The independent biographies we have of Alexander the Great from Plutarch and Arrian used the same source material and Arrian wrote much later than Plutarch.
I don't see why the burden falls on the Christian to prove the story of Joseph of Arimathea was historical with anything more than the prima facie evidence it is attested to in several relatively early ancient biographies. The burden would fall on you to prove otherwise without causing us to fall into the absurd positon of having to reject a large portion of ancient history in the process.
A discrepancy (actually an omission in this case) among the accounts is hardly enough to establish non historicity. My goodness with that sort of reasoning almost everything from antiquity which had more than one source reporting would be considered non historical.
Your historical methodology is seriously flawed.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwhy are we answering this same thing AGAIN? And why bother? Gary will just ask it again in a couple of pages. He either has Alzheimer's or he is a troll. Or an idiot. And none of the previous is exclusive. It could be all three.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIt was the Roman custom to leave the bodies up for days but eventually they would bury what was left. The question is, is the Gospel story true that the Romans cooperated with the Jews to get the bodies down before Passover? We will never know for sure, but it was not the usual Roman custom to defer to local religious sensitivities for persons crucified.
As Raymond Brown (citing Josephus' The Jewish War) explains in his Death of The Messiah "the Jews are so careful about funeral rites that even those who are crucified because they were guilty are taken down and buried before sunset."
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Juice View PostYour historical methodology is seriously flawed.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGiven Gary's disparaging dismissal of scholarship, his only "methodology" is proffering anything that might be construed to cast doubt on the historicity of the Resurrection. In fairness, he's aiming at the critical target, ineffectual though his attempts may be.
None of my positions are fringe.
The fact that my positions so disturb you, therefore, cannot be due to my poor methodology or the outlandishness of my positions. The obvious truth is that the reason they so disturb you is that your position is so very weak, tenuous, and difficult to defend.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostFour sources, yes.
But we know that two of them blatantly and extensively plagiarized the first. The fourth book was written many decades after the first, therefore it is very probable that the author of John had read/heard the stories as told in the first book (Mark) and simply adapted the core story of the Passion into his book, adding his own details. The point is: These are NOT independent sources. It is very possible that the original story of a guy named Joseph of Arimathea burying Jesus in his rock tomb is a theological invention of the author of the Gospel of Mark. I can't prove it was, but Christians cannot prove it wasn't.
Mark: Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Luke: Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council, 51 had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
Matthew: When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who was also a disciple of Jesus. 58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus; then Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
John: Afterward Joseph of Arimathea, who had been a secret disciple of Jesus (because he feared the Jewish leaders), asked Pilate for permission to take down Jesus' body. When Pilate gave permission, Joseph came and took the body away.
There is zero suggestion in Mark and Luke that Joseph was a disciple of Jesus. I would bet that "whopper-teller" Matthew invented this detail (along with the "tomb guards" and the "street roaming dead saints" stories) and the author of John adapted Matthew's invention into his gospel.
As for Joseph of Arimathea, let's just look at the Johannine account. John is by far the most anti-Judaic gospel (c.f. "Anti-Judaism in the Gospel of John" by P.M. Casey, Novum Testamentum). In order to make the burial acceptable to the Johannine community, the same community that has taken great pains to dissociate itself with the Jews in its gospel, John has to make Joseph a secret disciple of some type. Why? Presumably, the Johannine Community would have issues with a Jewish leader burying its Lord and Savior, especially when the Jewish leaders had cast them out of the synagogues (hence the opposition between Jesus and "the Jews" throughout John).
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Originally posted by Gary View PostMy methodology is that of Ehrman and Crossan. And once again, I accept scholarly consensus on all issues. I even accept most cases of majority scholarly opinion. The one claim for which I do not accept majority scholarly opinion, which is not the same as a consensus, is the Empty Tomb claim. And my position on this issue is the position of a respectable minority of scholars.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostMy methodology is that of Ehrman and Crossan. And once again, I accept scholarly consensus on all issues. I even accept most cases of majority scholarly opinion. The one claim for which I do not accept majority scholarly opinion, which is not the same as a consensus, is the Empty Tomb claim. And my position on this issue is the position of a respectable minority of scholars.
None of my positions are fringe.
The fact that my positions so disturb you, therefore, cannot be due to my poor methodology or the outlandishness of my positions. The obvious truth is that the reason they so disturb you is that your position is so very weak, tenuous, and difficult to defend.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by psstein View PostJohn is independent of Matthew. I don't have the time or patience to expound upon why John and Matthew are independent, so I'll just point you toward D. Moody Smith's relatively accessible and straightforward John Among the Gospels. RC's invocation of Kingsley Barrett's opinion is commendable but misguided. Barrett was a phenomenal scholar who did some really excellent work. He's wrong about the Synoptic relationship with John. The huge majority of Johannine specialists today hold to John as independent from the Synoptics, possibly with some shared tradition with Luke.
As for Joseph of Arimathea, let's just look at the Johannine account. John is by far the most anti-Judaic gospel (c.f. "Anti-Judaism in the Gospel of John" by P.M. Casey, Novum Testamentum). In order to make the burial acceptable to the Johannine community, the same community that has taken great pains to dissociate itself with the Jews in its gospel, John has to make Joseph a secret disciple of some type. Why? Presumably, the Johannine Community would have issues with a Jewish leader burying its Lord and Savior, especially when the Jewish leaders had cast them out of the synagogues (hence the opposition between Jesus and "the Jews" throughout John).
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Originally posted by psstein View PostThat is decidedly not true. The Johannine independence from the Synoptics is held to by the huge majority of scholars today.
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Originally posted by Juice View PostI was thinking along the same lines. I'm not aware, for example, of Ehrman arguing that John is literally dependent on Mark.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDo you believe that the author of John had ever read or heard the Gospel of Mark (written several decades earlier) prior to writing his own gospel?
But that doesn't make John dependent on Mark, Gary. If that's all it takes to be dependent then, for example, there are no independent narratives for the assassination of Julius Caesar since Nicolas of Damascus was the first to write a narrative, followed by Plutarch 50-60 years later, and Suetonius about 50 years after Plutarch and so on down the line. Surely enough time for each respective writer to have either read or heard the previous one's story. Don't you see how your historical reasoning is flawed here?Last edited by Juice; 08-01-2016, 02:58 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDo you believe that the author of John had ever read or heard the Gospel of Mark (written several decades earlier) prior to writing his own gospel?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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