Changed life = Works Salvation?

[tabibito]

Yet, that's not what I said. You portray things in the reverse of what they are. The Christian's life must be changed by Christ, otherwise they are not a Christian.

Is Christ the only one active in securing this?

1 John 3:2-3 2....we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

We still sin sometimes, but our lives are not characterized by sin. This is because the moment a person is redeemed, they are begun to be re-made into the image of the author of their faith, Jesus Christ (Colossians 1-3). Even John in 1 John recognizes this fact.

Yup - the process takes time, and it isn't pleasant.

[DeaconZ]

Is Christ the only one active in securing this?[table="width: 500, align: center"]
1 John 3:2-3
....we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

I think (just like eschatology) that we can often go so much into the weeds of theology or picking nits, that we lose the point of the teaching, which is that the Christian is set free from the shackles of sin in order to live for righteousness and the mission and glory of God.

Yes, I do believe only the Spirit of Christ can effect this change. Yet still, while we are in this flesh, we still sin sometimes. Thank God though that we are no longer slaves to it.

[tabibito]

I think (just like eschatology) that we can often go so much into the weeds of theology or picking nits, that we lose the point of the teaching, which is that the Christian is set free from the shackles of sin in order to live for righteousness and the mission and glory of God.

Agreed. However, sound doctrine is more than a matter of nit-picking.

Yes, I do believe only the Spirit of Christ can effect this change. Yet still, while we are in this flesh, we still sin sometimes. Thank God though that we are no longer slaves to it.

If you were to say that without the auspices of the Holy Spirit, the change cannot be effected, I would whole-heartedly agree: so tis written.

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Does it not at least seem that the Holy Spirit will work this change only with the active consent and participation of the believer?

(this post) while we are in this flesh
(prior post)You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. Romans 8:9

[DeaconZ]

Agreed. However, sound doctrine is more than a matter of nit-picking.

If you were to say that without the auspices of the Holy Spirit, the change cannot be effected, I would whole-heartedly agree: so tis written.

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Does it not at least seem that the Holy Spirit will work this change only with the active consent and participation of the believer?

Yes, there is active cooperation with the believer. But it is still the Spirit alone that sanctifies and gives enablement. At least that's my understanding.

Also, in regard to the "in the flesh", the Scripture was in reference to who we are. My reference was to physicality. Perhaps I should have said "in the physical body"?

[tabibito]

Yes, there is active cooperation with the believer. But it is still the Spirit alone that sanctifies and gives enablement. At least that's my understanding.

From memory, there are three other passages that support only the underscored section. By contrast, there are a number of passages that declare we are made clean through the process of baptism (again - under auspices of the Holy Spirit, as far as I can tell.)

Also, in regard to the "in the flesh", the Scripture was in reference to who we are. My reference was to physicality. Perhaps I should have said "in the physical body"?

I hadn't thought to make that distinction - it will take some investigating.

[Obsidian]

The Christian's life must be changed by Christ, otherwise they are not a Christian.

It is the spirit that is changed by Christ, changed into the "new man."

Colossians 3:9-10
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We still sin sometimes, but our lives are not characterized by sin.

The resurrected spirit does not sin. Paul says that we should not sin because we have put on the new man (which is pure). Paul says that when he sins, it is no longer himself that does it. The new man is righteous, and doesn't sin at all.

Ephesians 4:23-24
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is because the moment a person is redeemed, they are begun to be re-made into the image of the author of their faith, Jesus Christ (Colossians 1-3).

The spirit is born again by the Holy Spirit. It's not a "beginning." It is a complete resurrection of the spirit. But one day the flesh will be born again by the Holy Spirit, too.

Romans 8:15-16
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God[.]


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Even John in 1 John recognizes this fact.

John teaches, just like Paul, that the new man NEVER sins.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . .

But we must still put on the new man. For the still-breathing Christian, there are two natures. There is the new man which is already resurrected, and there is the flesh which is still corrupt.

Galatians 5:13-17
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. . . . For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[DeaconZ]

Interesting. I will think through this carefully. Never really thought about in that exact way.

I was coming more from a position such as the one in this article.

http://www.gotquestions.org/two-natures.html

[tabibito]

It is the spirit that is changed by Christ, changed into the "new man."

Colossians 3:9-10
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



The resurrected spirit does not sin. Paul says that we should not sin because we have put on the new man (which is pure). Paul says that when he sins, it is no longer himself that does it. The new man is righteous, and doesn't sin at all.

Ephesians 4:23-24
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



The spirit is born again by the Holy Spirit. It's not a "beginning." It is a complete resurrection of the spirit. But one day the flesh will be born again by the Holy Spirit, too.

Romans 8:15-16
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God[.]


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



John teaches, just like Paul, that the new man NEVER sins.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . .

But we must still put on the new man. For the still-breathing Christian, there are two natures. There is the new man which is already resurrected, and there is the flesh which is still corrupt.

Galatians 5:13-17
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. . . . For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Seems to me that people are being told to stop sinning ... because you have put off the old man. (Colossians 3:9-10)
Then there's the whole "Awake to righteousness, and do not sin" thing (1 Corinthians 15:34) - though I do prefer the NIV rendering.
put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.(Colossians 3:5)
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13)

[Pentecost]

I agree with Obsidian's premise that our Spirit is free but our bodies are still slaves to sin, but take the conclusion of Tabibito particularly his citation of Romans 8:13.

[tabibito]

Galatians 5:13-17
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. . . . For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

What happens when we fill in the dots?

Galatians 5:16 -17

₁₆ I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. ₁₇ for the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

The things that you wish: are they the desires of your flesh, or the desires of your spirit?

Rom 7:14-17

₁₄ For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. ₁₅ For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. ₁₆ If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. ₁₇ But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

According to Romans 7:14-17 the answer could be, you don't fulfil the desire of your spirit. But a few more questions need to be addressed.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

₁₉ Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? ₂₀ For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Is the carnal person, the one sold under sin, in Christ? Has the person in Christ been redeemed?

Romans 7:5

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

According to this, are we still in the flesh?

Romans 8:8

So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[tabibito]

[Obsidian]

You have to study the passage more carefully, and figure out how each specific phrase is used. You can't be simplistic about it. To be "in the flesh" or to "live after the flesh" refers to the unsaved experience. That is because each person is born into flesh. If you are unsaved then the only source of your life is your flesh and blood, and ultimately you are mortal so you will die. If you are saved, then ultimately your life is based on the Holy Spirit who has saved your soul and will one day save your body. The saved person has a new life based in the spiritual.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So the term "live" refers to a person's spiritual state. But the term "walk" refers to the person's practical experience.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God's goal in saving believers was so that the believers would do good works (walk after the Spirit). If a believer continues walking after the flesh, he is letting God down and failing to fulfill his purpose.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[tabibito]

You have to study the passage more carefully, and figure out how each specific phrase is used. You can't be simplistic about it.

Actually, you can. Romans 7:5 says that we were in the flesh. And in full context, we are also told why:

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. ₅ For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. ₆ But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

To be "in the flesh" or to "live after the flesh" refers to the unsaved experience. That is because each person is born into flesh. If you are unsaved then the only source of your life is your flesh and blood, and ultimately you are mortal so you will die. If you are saved, then ultimately your life is based on the Holy Spirit who has saved your soul and will one day save your body. The saved person has a new life based in the spiritual.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:9 specifically contrasts "in the flesh" with "in the spirit". If "in the flesh" signifies "live after the flesh" then "in the Spirit" signifies "live after the Spirit."

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

So the term "live" refers to a person's spiritual state. But the term "walk" refers to the person's practical experience.

mortify in this context means "put to death. - and it is the deeds of the flesh that are done away with.

θανατοω (thanatoo)
1 to put to death

2 metaphorically

to make to die i.e. destroy, render extinct

by death to be liberated from the bond of anything, literally to be made dead in relation to (something)

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:25 comes hard on the heels of Galatians 5:24 - which again says that people in Christ have crucified the flesh - and it doesn't end there - but continues on to say "the flesh together with its passions and desires."

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

just so - Jesus passed sentence on sin in the flesh.

So what excuses do we advance for trampling the grace of God underfoot by sinning?

God's goal in saving believers was so that the believers would do good works (walk after the Spirit). If a believer continues walking after the flesh, he is letting God down and failing to fulfill his purpose.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That being the case, and with the large body of scriptural evidence supporting the contention that Jesus has ordained that we do good works, sinning would be a matter of disobedience. It is quite evident that no-one is lord to the person who disobeys him - Jesus himself said as much.

[Obsidian]

Galatians 5:25 comes hard on the heels of Galatians 5:24 - which again says that people in Christ have crucified the flesh - and it doesn't end there - but continues on to say "the flesh together with its passions and desires."

Your whole position rests on ignoring verses that contradict you. It specifically distinguishes (as I do) living in the spirit from walking in the spirit.

So what excuses do we advance for trampling the grace of God underfoot by sinning?

If you are trusting in your obedience to get you to heaven, which it sounds like, then you won't be there.

[tabibito]

So far I haven't been presented with the verses that contradict my argument - assuming that such verses exist, that is.

There have been a couple of attempts to change the meanings of words to make them fit with the counter argument though.