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The Parable of the Wheat & the Tares & its Explanation

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  • #46
    Originally posted by paladin View Post
    And although you suppose that destruction can extend forever, it can only do that in result, never in process. If the process of destruction never completes, it was never actually a process of destruction -- just a process of torment. The two images of the smoke rising forever and of the cup of wrath never withdrawn assure that the destruction will certainly be complete.
    The destruction of the lost will indeed be "eternal"/age-lasting.

    These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction [olethros aionios] from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:9,10 HCSB)

    If we wish to get creative, we may read the aforementioned text to mean the wicked will undergo an unending process of destruction which never actually culminates in destruction. Besides the strangeness (or rather, unlikelihood) of such an interpretation, this reading is driven primarily by the presupposition of universal immortality. A more natural reading of the text is simply that the wicked will be permanently destroyed at Christ's return. So no, the idea is not that the unrighteous will endure endless conscious "ruin" or some other fanciful notion along these lines.
    Last edited by The Remonstrant; 02-26-2014, 05:33 AM.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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    • #47
      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
      Looks like you and I am in full agreement concerning what scripture teaches...By the way: I found the article well written...
      Thank you. It's good to run across people who agree with me once in a while. (As they say, "great minds think alike".)

      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
      I note in your article an emphasis on the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". I presume we agree, this scenario is a precursor to the final judgement...not a result of the judgement...
      You are correct. This is the very point advocates of the conventional view seem unable or unwilling to grasp. The assumption that the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" denotes unending suffering is without warrant. Furthermore, the notion that the expression is employed to indicate the wicked will literally endure ongoing torment inside a furnace of fire in Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tares is bogus.

      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
      Sadly, catechists and other sunday school "christians" fail to notice that in the typical evidentiary quotes there is no mention of fire or punishment. For example: in one of the commonly quoted texts there is merely a reference of those who are thrown into a place of waiting referred to as an "outer darkness".

      I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8:11,12)
      Interestingly, Jesus never "mixes" the imagery of fire and darkness together. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is the action/response of the wicked upon their being gathered out or excluded from the kingdom. Also, I don't see any compelling evidence in Matthew's Gospel for the notion of prolonged torment. When the unrighteous are separated from the righteous, it appears their destruction will be swift. The symbolic imagery alluding to final punishment throughout Matthew suggests this hunch is correct. The main purpose of the judgement is not to inflict torment on the lost but to cleanse them from the world, the kingdom of God ("the field"). Of course adherents of ECT find this idea impossible to accept because, for them, the punishment of the wicked is unending torment.
      Last edited by The Remonstrant; 02-26-2014, 05:53 AM.
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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      • #48
        Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
        Interestingly, Jesus never "mixes" the imagery of fire and darkness together.
        True! Also notable, I think, is that the imagery of darkness is never echoed in a plausibly literal explanation -- it sits in parables (in Christ's teaching) and in long sequences of metaphors (in the general epistles). The modern argument that final judgment doesn't involve literal fire because literal fire and literal darkness are incompatible is simply a false argument; only fire is mentioned in even slightly literal contexts.

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        • #49
          An observation: In an earlier observation of mine I referred to Mt 3:11 (and someone added also Lk 3:16) wherein we read that "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:" Now, I take the reference to fire to be a reference to the travails that all encounter as the Spirit cleanses us of our "old self" and leads us (to use A.Paul's metaphor) to become the "new man".

          The relevance of such to this thread is (imo) best summed up in a question: Are we to preserve our "old self" or are we to eliminate/exterminate/annihilate it and become the "new man"?

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