Open Theism

[nico]

Question: Do you think God can bring about prophecy without foreknowledge and fixing everything beforehand?

Not ultimately. God could not have known that Judas would betray him, or that Pilate would have him crucified. It was a matter of probability, albeit a high probability, yet still took a risk of failing the mission of redemption.

Is the problem your having that foreknowledge necessitates exhaustive determinism? That's true if you view things in a purely deductive way. However, Scripture sets limits and should work to restrain logical extremes. Revelation is not a product of logic, and reason should always freely rationalize within the confines of Scripture. This sometimes requires us to relegate difficult tensions to mystery.

The very last thing anyone should do is make God contingent on his own experience. The temptation to view things that way is strikingly similar to the arian heresy that cannot logically reconcile Jesus the man as fully divine, and the docetic heresy that cannot logically reconcile Jesus the divine as fully man. To strip God of an essential attribute is dangerous.

[phat8594]

It cannot be the case that we have free will from our perspective, and yet we do not have free will from God's perspective. Either we do or we don't.

I never said that. -- and neither would I affirm that.

Except that the topic isn't God's nature, but rather the compatibility of our free will with foreknowledge of what occurs in this universe.

So, we'll call this "guilt by association" and "apples and oranges." Two fallacies for the price of one.

Firstly, when we discuss how God 'knows' or 'experiences our chronology' we are dealing with God's nature.

Furthermore, just stating 'apples and oranges' doesn't make it so. Just as saying 'guilt by assocation' doesn't make it so. I wasn't saying that what you believe is false because of JW's, but rather I was giving an example of how trying to 'prove' something about God (in this case, how He knows / experiences our chronology) from our experience or from creation CAN be dangerous. AND it definitely is NOT reliable.

So the issue was with the method. If the method was reliable, then the JW's might be onto something. But as that example shows: trying to understand the complexities of God by our experience of creation is unreliable at the least.

Because the bible only indicates that God is ontologically distinct from creation, and experiences a sequence of events. It doesn't tell us how He experiences His chronology.

We are discussing how He experiences OUR chronology. Remember, you are the one saying that He experiences our chronology differently -- and yet you have yet to show how that is so, in any meaningful way.

That doesn't logically follow. The only thing we can conclude is that God's chronology allows Him to observe ours.

If that is all you can conclude, then you believe no more than I do! (that is if you do not believe that God experiences our chronology the same way we do [with regards to time])

Of course, from our discussion so far it seems you are saying that God observes our chronology from the same perspective as we do (with regards to time).


To clarify, I agree that God observes (and interacts) with our chronology. But the issue at hand is HOW God views / experiences our chronology.

[dacristoy]

they are logically incompatible

Do you perceive God to be logically impaired as men are. I shudder in my tracks when I hear men saying, "God can do this, but he cannot do that, because of this. Do you perceive your 1 through 10 scenario listed above really has the power to determine what God can and cannot do?

"Why can't the doctrine of freewill and the concept of God's exhaustive foreknowledge peacefully exist?" Why do we conclude that freewill and foreknowledge negate each other? Why can't he know simply because the will is free?" If it was God's will that this be true, what in creation that we know of could prevent him from making it so. This is not an appropriate argument for the truth of it, but if the God of Genesis 1 is on the job, then truly all things are possible.

If you prefer God as timeless, there is a modified version for timelessness in this thread.

I do not understand...

[Littlejoe]

1. He knows our prayers even before we pray them.
a. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all (Psalm 139:4, NASB).
b. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. (Matthew 6:8, NASB).

Not sure how this qualifies. Even other people could know what you need before you actually pray for it....much less God....

2. He knows future events.
a. Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming; Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. Behold, you are of no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination. "I have aroused one from the north, and he has come; From the rising of the sun he will call on My name; And he will come upon rulers as upon mortar, Even as the potter treads clay." Who has declared this from the beginning, that we might know? Or from former times, that we may say, "He is right!"? Surely there was no one who declared, Surely there was no one who proclaimed, Surely there was no one who heard your words. (Isaiah 41:21-26)
b. Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.(Isaiah 42:9, NASB)
c. Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol And pray to a god who cannot save. Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. (Isaiah 45:20-21, NASB)
d. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure' (Isaiah 46:10, NASB)
e. I declared the former things long ago And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass. Because I know that you are obstinate, And your neck is an iron sinew And your forehead bronze, Therefore I declared them to you long ago, Before they took place I proclaimed them to you, So that you would not say, 'My idol has done them, And my graven image and my molten image have commanded them. (Isaiah 48:3-5, NASB)
f. All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant. (Jeremiah 27:7, NASB)

a. God said "obey my commandments or else I will bring punishment upon you" . Israel did not obey, and God did what he said he would do...how is that knowing the future?
b. In context, God says "As you continue to obey me my faithful servant, I will bless you and give you the rewards I promised" Again, no future knowledge in evidence.
c. A verse from a passage addressing salvation? Not sure of the relevance here. If you do what I say, you will be saved....
d, Read it In context, God said (in the past) if you continue to disobey me, I will raise up a punisher and he will do what I told you he would do...punish you.
e. Same as before. God said he would do something, then he did it....from the verse above:

....I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass

f. Not sure how this one is even relevant...but so that you don't think I'm trying to avoid some clincher argument....from the text

5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is [d]pleasing in My sight. 6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and I have given him also the wild animals of the field to serve him

So, in context, God said "this is what I am going to do" and he did it...where is knowing the future here?
LJ

[Littlejoe]

Appears to me that you are trying to use foreknowledge and foreordain as synonyms; they are not interchangeable.

Foreknowledge:
Knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience: Did you have any foreknowledge of the scheme?

foreordain:
1. To ordain or appoint beforehand.
2. To predestine; predetermine.

Not really...you seem to ignore the obvious here... With God, these are tied together at the hip. You see, if an omniscient, infallible being (our God) knows something as being certain, then no one, no thing, not even HE can change it...because he is infallible and he know it infallibly. That my friend is the very definition of destiny...or predestination.

[foudroyant]

LJ,

1. I'd like to see other people know the totality of what is in everyone's heart before a prayer is spoken. This they can not do.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...4868#post34868

2. All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant. (Jeremiah 27:7, NASB)
Lucky guess right?

[Littlejoe]

LJ,

1. I'd like to see other people know the totality of what is in everyone's heart before a prayer is spoken. This they can not do.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...4868#post34868

Now you are just adding words to the scriptures to make them fit your theology...I think there is a term for that....

2. All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant. (Jeremiah 27:7, NASB)
Lucky guess right?

Nooooo....God said this is what I am going to do, then he did it, why did you ignore my points about the context? Please reread the verses preceding vs 7 where God says...I Gave, I gave, I gave, for a time of MY choosing....

[foudroyant]

kardiognwsta is a word from the Bible.

[Littlejoe]

kardiognwsta is a word from the Bible.

Ah...Sorry! Actually, I missed that you are using a strawman here....this would be a belief that all OVT's (I know of) would agree to.... that God knows your heart completely. That's not knowledge of the future though....that is knowledge in the here and now. Cool! So we agree on something!

[foudroyant]

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. (Psalm 139:4, NASB)

This is knowledge of the future because there are different ways the tongue can express what is one's heart.
Before these words are spoken God already knows what a person is going to say.

[Littlejoe]

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. (Psalm 139:4, NASB)
This is knowledge of the future because there are different ways the tongue can express what is one's heart.
Before these words are spoken God already knows what a person is going to say.

Only if you start with the premise that God knows everything about the future...and read that into this text.
Look at the verse above, then look at these verses:

4 Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen [a]to what I say? For they may say, ‘The Lord has not appeared to you.’” 2 The Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3 Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 But the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his [b]hand— 5 “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”
6 The Lord furthermore said to him, “Now put your hand into your bosom.” So he put his hand into his bosom, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow. 7 Then He said, “Put your hand into your bosom again.” So he put his hand into his bosom again, and when he took it out of his bosom, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh. 8 “If they will not believe you or [c]heed the [d]witness of the first sign, they may believe the [e]witness of the last sign. 9 But if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.”

God does NOT know if they will believe either the first or the second sign.

17 Now when Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not lead them by the way of the land of the Philistines, even though it was near; for God said, “The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

God thinks they MIGHT change their minds and go back.

6 Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7 I [g]thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

God thought Israel would return to Him, but they did not.

Ok, All of these verses, including your passage from Psalms are scripture and therefore, must be true. We can't pick the ones we like and discount the ones we do not. We must reconcile all of them. So, how do you reconcile this apparent dichotomy. If all of these are true, then it seems (to me anyways) your heurmeneutic needs further examination.

[foudroyant]

1. God knew all the words that David was going to speak. That is specific future knowledge.
2. The other passages do not claim what you think they do. Please cite one authority that agrees with you.

[Littlejoe]

1. God knew all the words that David was going to speak. That is specific future knowledge.

No, that is you READING future knowledge into the text

2. The other passages do not claim what you think they do.

What a great argument...I'm right and you are wrong....why didn't I think of that...

In the first passage: GOD SAYS..."8 “If they will not believe you or heed the witness of the first sign, they may believe the witness of the last sign. 9 But if they will not believe even these two signs or heed what you say, then you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water which you take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.”
I'm not saying anything...God IS!

Second Passage: for God said, “The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

Third Passage: Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7 I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

Please cite one authority that agrees with you.

I can give you four:
Dr. Gregory A. Boyd PH. D. - Author of "God of the Possible": After earning a bachelor's degree in Philosophy from the University of Minnesota he attended Yale Divinity School, graduating cum laude with a Master of Divinity degree in 1982. He then attended Princeton Theological Seminary, earning a Ph.D. in 1987, graduating magna cum laude. While at Princeton he was a classmate of Bart Ehrman and a student of Bruce Metzger. Boyd was then Professor of Theology at Bethel University for sixteen years, where he continues to teach on an adjunct basis. In 1992 Boyd co-founded Woodland Hills Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Boyd_(theologian)

Dr. John Sanders TH.D. - Author of "The God Who Risks": He earned a doctoral degree (Th.D.) at the University of South Africa in 1996, a master of arts degree in theology from Wartburg Theological Seminary in 1987, and a bachelor's degree in philosophy from Trinity College (Illinois) in 1979. He currently serves as professor of religious studies at Hendrix College in Arkansas and previously taught at Huntington University in Indiana and Oak Hills Christian College in Minnesota. He was the Frederick J. Crosson Fellow at The Center for Philosophy of Religion (1997–1998) at the University of Notre Dame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sanders

Dr. R. William Hasker PH.D - Author of "God, Time, and Knowledge": Dr. Hasker received his Ph.D. in theology and philosophy of religion from The University of Edinburgh. A distinguished scholar, Dr. Hasker has published numerous works;...His articles have appeared in the Supplementary Volume to the Encyclopedia of Philosophy, in the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and in the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy. During 1989-90, he was a Fellow at the Center for Philosophy of Religion at the University of Notre Dame. Dr. Hasker was on sabbatical with the Pew Evangelical Scholars Program for the 1997-1998 school year. He was President of the Society for Philosophy of Religion for 2005-2006, and served as the editor of the journal Faith and Philosophy from 2000 until 2007.
http://www.huntington.edu/Bible/Faculty/William-Hasker/

(The Late) Dr. Clark H. Pinnock PH.D. - Author of "Most Moved Mover": Pinnock studied in the Ancient Near Eastern Studies program at the University of Toronto and in 1960 he was graduated. Because he was very outstanding, he then was awarded both a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship to Harvard and a British Commonwealth Scholarship to England. Pinnock decided to go to England to study under F.F. Bruce at Manchester University. The dissertation for his Ph.D was “The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in St. Paul”. Several years later, in 1965, he joined the faculty of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. From 1969 to 1974 Pinnock taught at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Deerfield, Illinois, and from 1974 to 1977 at Regent College in Vancouver. He taught at McMaster Divinity College from 1977 until his retirement in 2002.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Pinnock

[foudroyant]

It's not just me reading it into the context. Even BEFORE a word is spoken God knows it ALL. How you can insist that this doesn't refer to future knowledge is strange.
Adam Clarke: Although (כי (ki)) there be not a word in my tongue, behold O Jehovah, thou knowest the whole of it, that is, thou knowest all my words before they are uttered as thou knowest all my thoughts while as yet they are unformed.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?bk=18&ch=139
John Gill: The Lord knows the good words of his people, which they speak to him in prayer, even BEFORE and while they are speaking them; and what they say to one another in private conversation, Isaiah 65:24. (emphasis mine)
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?bk=18&ch=139
Matthew Poole: Thou knowest what I intend to speak, either in prayer to thee, or in conversation with men, when I have not yet uttered one word of it.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mpc/view.cgi?bk=18&ch=139
Richard Taylor: The God who created us knows everything we are going to say before we say it (Ps 139:4; Isa 65:24) (The New American Commentary, Haggai, Malachi, page 406).

You misunderstand Exodus 4. They should believe what God is doing through Moses. Perhaps Moses doubted as well. In this way God assured him that He was with him (Moses).
Guzik: There was a real message in the first two signs. The first said, “Moses, if you obey Me, your enemies will be made powerless.” The second said “Moses, if you obey Me, your pollution can be made pure.” Doubts in each of these areas probably hindered Moses, and before those signs ministered to anyone else, the ministered to Moses. This is the pattern with all God’s leaders.
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?bk=1&ch=4

Perhaps you can cite something from one of the people you listed concerning Psalm 139:4.

[dacristoy]

Not really...you seem to ignore the obvious here... With God, these are tied together at the hip.

Nothing obvious is ignored here. Guess another question is in order before I definitively respond, that being: "Who tied them together, was it man or God....

You see, if an omniscient, infallible being (our God) knows something as being certain, then no one, no thing, not even HE can change it...because he is infallible and he know it infallibly. That my friend is the very definition of destiny...or predestination.

Once again there is that conclusion that makes me shudder in my footsteps. “not even HE can change it...”. What happened to God’s omnipotence? “With God “all things” are possible”. Knowledge is in no way predestenative, it is knowledge of something. It is absolutely feasible God o know what one will say or do at any given time without God being the cause of what is said or done. That is a sophistic argument that is riddled with holes.
1. 1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
2. Amos 7:6
The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God.

The use of the Hebrew word naham [j"n] often refers to God "repenting, " along with human beings doing the same. The basic sense is "being sorry, or grieved" for something that has been done. Frequently God "relents" or "changes his dealings" with humans. God was "grieved" at human evil in the earth, resulting in the flood ( Gen 6:6-7 ); the Lord "relented" and turned away his threat of disaster ( Exod 32:14 ); he was "grieved" at having made Saul king, and deposed him ( 1 Samuel 15:11 1 Samuel 15:26 ). These descriptions may be regarded as anthropopathic, in which God exhibited emotional responses known to be present in humans also. Not infrequently God relented and withheld predicted judgment on Israel. An especially vivid illustration of this reversal is found in Hosea 11:8-9: "How can I give you up, Ephraim? My heart is changed within me I will not carry out my fierce anger." God's true love for Israel would triumph, and he would keep covenant with his people."relented" and turned away his threat of disaster ( Exod 32:14 ); he was "grieved" at having made Saul king, and deposed him ( 1 Samuel 15:11 1 Samuel 15:26 ). These descriptions may be regarded as anthropopathic, in which God exhibited emotional responses known to be present in humans also. Not infrequently God relented and withheld predicted judgment on Israel. An especially vivid illustration of this reversal is found in Hosea 11:8-9: "How can I give you up, Ephraim? My heart is changed within me I will not carry out my fierce anger." God's true love for Israel would triumph, and he would keep covenant with his people.