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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • No.
    How do you associate the two?

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    • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      No.
      So an OT could say you deny God's omnipotence...

      How do you associate the two?
      If you think about it, there are only two possibilities:

      1. God know everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will every happen exactly as it did, is now happening, or is going to happen. It's 100% settled.
      2. God know everything that has ever happened, is happening, and whatever He has determined to do, plus let's say a good probability in what free will agents will decide to do.

      IF #1. is true, and therefore everything is completely 100% settled in God's mind and already determined by his will, then the future is completely predetermined, ALL of it. If it is, then even God can't change the future that He knows will happen. If God knows it is going to happen, then it's going to happen...don't you agree? I do! If so, how do YOU resolve that conflict?

      IF #2. is true, God moves and interacts with His creation. Genuinely responds to prayer, and can change the future based upon that response...which way do you naturally believe? Which way does the Bible say He responds?
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • Omnipotence - I don't believe God can create a square circle. This like your example is a logical absurdity.

        #1 What conflict?
        No need for God to "change" anything when He already knew what was the best thing to do all along.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          Omnipotence - I don't believe God can create a square circle. This like your example is a logical absurdity.

          #1 What conflict?
          No need for God to "change" anything when He already knew what was the best thing to do all along.
          So intercessory prayer is useless?

          Supplication prayer is also useless?

          Why bother to pray if it's all already predetermined? No need to pray for guidance, you will do what God has already predetermined. Is this what you believe?

          Is it correct to say that you are a Hard Determinist?
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • Not useless because God in His omniscience knew that would happen. We don't know but He always did.

            http://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html

            Comment


            • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
              Not useless because God in His omniscience knew that would happen. We don't know but He always did.

              http://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html
              That just restates the obvious...that we should...because we should. You have a hard time posting without using someone else's opinion don't you?

              Also, please answer my question, are you a hard determinist?
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                So an OT could say you deny God's omnipotence...

                If you think about it, there are only two possibilities:

                1. God know everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will every happen exactly as it did, is now happening, or is going to happen. It's 100% settled.
                2. God know everything that has ever happened, is happening, and whatever He has determined to do, plus let's say a good probability in what free will agents will decide to do.

                IF #1. is true, and therefore everything is completely 100% settled in God's mind and already determined by his will, then the future is completely predetermined, ALL of it. If it is, then even God can't change the future that He knows will happen. If God knows it is going to happen, then it's going to happen...don't you agree? I do! If so, how do YOU resolve that conflict?

                IF #2. is true, God moves and interacts with His creation. Genuinely responds to prayer, and can change the future based upon that response...which way do you naturally believe? Which way does the Bible say He responds?
                I went looking for that Old Testament quote about God knowing everything that can be known a while back and couldn't find it - Can you provide a reference?
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  I went looking for that Old Testament quote about God knowing everything that can be known a while back and couldn't find it - Can you provide a reference?
                  Just like the doctrine of the Trinity, it's implicit rather than explicit
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    Just like the doctrine of the Trinity, it's implicit rather than explicit
                    Rats - I could swear I actually read it way back in the when.
                    So it comes down to opinion whether omniscience is absolute or relative, though I tend to think it is not quite absolute - it would be nice to have something solid either way.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment

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