Open Theism

[IDScience]

Open Theism is the belief that God does not fully know what choices people will make. God fully knows the past and fully knows the present but the future (the choices made by people) is not yet fully known to God.

Is Open Theism heresy?
or is it a minor misunderstanding by those who advocate it?

Quantum physics predicts many or endless possibilities (or superpositions) in which we can choose what reality actually happens, our conscious choice then collapses the wave function creating that particular reality. Of course this does not mean God does not know which choice we will eventually make, but only that we have been given a range of choices to choose from. Sort of like the old video game "dragon's lair" in which what ever choice you make then determines what future possibilities you have

[hedrick]

I've spent a bit more time checking the physics. I think I am going to retract my objection against the idea that God is within time.

It's true that our space-time universe has time as inherently part of it, which made me worry that the concept of time outside our space-time is dubious. However it appears that theories such as string theory which talk about a meta-universe from which ours might have come still have something like time. As I understand it, string theories typically have 11 or 26 dimensions, only one of which is roughly speaking time. So even if our specific 4 dimensions is just a small part of something larger, it seems like it's at least possible and maybe even likely that time itself might be meaningful outside our own universe.

This is important because the most straightforward reading of the Bible is that God is within time. While it's clear that God has long-term plans, I think the simplest reading of the Bible is that he isn't responsible for every detail. He has a planned goal for it. He certainly causes some thing directly. He works with us to bring good out of evil. But on balance the most likely reading of Scripture seems to me that he doesn't control everything. Indeed the universe seems to be set up to make that impossible in principle.

[foudroyant]

It is a view that reflects Scripture accurately.

And it does not deny divine omniscience.

Open Theism does deny divine omniscience:

Acts 2:33
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (NASB)

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (NASB)

a. Danker: predetermination, of God's omniscient wisdom and intention ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ Ac 2:23. destined by God the Father 1 Pt 1:2 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, prognwsis, page 867)
b. Vine: "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1101
c. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: In the sense of prescience foreknowledge is an aspect of God's omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=3503
d. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology: In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. (Herbert M. Wolf)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=271

[Littlejoe]

Open Theism does deny divine omniscience:

Acts 2:33
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. (NASB)

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (NASB)

a. Danker: predetermination, of God's omniscient wisdom and intention ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ Ac 2:23. destined by God the Father 1 Pt 1:2 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, prognwsis, page 867)
b. Vine: "a foreknowledge" (akin to A.), is used only of Divine "foreknowledge," Acts 2:23; 1 Peter 1:2 . "Foreknowledge" is one aspect of omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=1101
c. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: In the sense of prescience foreknowledge is an aspect of God's omniscience
http://www.studylight.org/encycloped...iew.cgi?n=3503
d. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology: In his omniscience God knows what the future holds both for individuals and for nations. (Herbert M. Wolf)
http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=271

Weak....very weak....

[foudroyant]

What then does πρόγνωσις mean?

[Littlejoe]

What then does πρόγνωσις mean?

#4268 πρόγνωσις prognosis {prog'-no-sis}
from G4267; TDNT - 1:715,119; n f
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From G4267; forethought:—foreknowledge.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

It can mean more than you are trying to make it say...which seems to be your modus operandi.

[foudroyant]

It's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153.

[Littlejoe]

It's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153.

Sure it does. Let me help you out since you don't even understand my point. Since forethought, or prearranged is in the range of meaning, then OVT would not deny God's Omniscience in these passages.

[foudroyant]

Since he denies this aspect of God's omniscience then yes indeed he does deny God's omniscience.

[tabibito]

But on balance the most likely reading of Scripture seems to me that he doesn't control everything. Indeed the universe seems to be set up to make that impossible in principle.

I'm thinking it is more a matter of unnecessary rather than impossible. Every attested sign and wonder shows that the system can be over-ridden or tweaked, but the system (so it seems) will run quite happily by itself without intervention. The fact that God does intervene on behalf of, or in opposition to, specific persons seems to indicate that the system hasn't been set up to take care of all circumstances.

[themuzicman]

It's not more than what I am trying to say. It coincides with what I am trying to say. When we look at ALL the evidence this still doesn't demonstrate my evidence is "very weak". Nothing you cited refutes what I cited in Post #153.

Foreknowledge of what God will do or bring about doesn't stand opposed to open theism. God knew He would bring about Christ's death. That was His plan. Not a problem for open theism.

God will have an elect. Again, not a problem for open theism.

What's interesting is that in the bible there are 3 things that are predestined:

Adoption, inheritance (Eph 1), and being conformed to the image of the son. (Rom 8). All are done by God, and all are still future to us.

Foreknowledge is similar:

God foreknows that he will conform Christians into the image of His son (Rom 8). God foreknew Israel (corporately, Rom 11). God foreknows the elect (corporately, 1 peter 1), and God foreknew Christ's death (Acts 2).

That's it. That's all the bible says God foreknows and predestines.

[foudroyant]

So does OT affirm that God knows at least some future events but not all?

[Littlejoe]

OT affirms that God knows everything that is possible to know. That would include some future events exactly as they will happen, and also, all future possible events. IOW, God knows if you do w, then x, then y, the result WILL be z...or any combination you so choose. God knows ALL future facts, probabilities and possibilities.

[foudroyant]

OT affirms that God knows everything that is possible to know. That would include some future events exactly as they will happen

Why not all (in contrast to "some") future events exactly as they will happen?

[Littlejoe]

Why not all (in contrast to "some") future events exactly as they will happen?

To an OT, it's an illogical statement.

Do you believe God can make a rock so big that even he cannot lift it?