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The Consequence Argument for incompatibilism

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  • The Consequence Argument for incompatibilism

    Robert Kane in his book, A Contemporary Introduction to Free Will, discusses the Consequence Argument for incompatibilism. I modified it and here is the argument:

    If theological determinism is true, then how we act today is the necessary consequences of what God ordained we would do. But it is not up to us what God ordained. We have no control over those things. If it is not up to us whether certain things happen then neither is it up to us whether the consequences of those things happen. If we have no control over what God ordained we would do and it has the consequence that we will act in a certain way, then we have no control over how we act. Hence, if theological determinism is true, then it is not up to us how we act today. If it is not up to us how we act today, then we are not responsible for how we act today.

    How would you respond to it?

    I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jaxb View Post

    I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.
    But would not our desires also be ordained by God?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      How does that make sense? I though determinism would entail having the nonexistent free will of fictional characters. Can fictional characters be held responsible out of universe for their actions when it's the writer that causes everything? God didn't decree from eternity past that I would write this post. He knew that this universe He created would have me writing this post in it versus some other hypothetical universe where I didn't. Of course, that is an incredibly small example. I really don't see how a deterministic universe would be different from a fictional one.
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But would not our desires also be ordained by God?
        Yes, they are ordained from God. God made a plan that our desires would proceed from our heart or will.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
          Yes, they are ordained from God. God made a plan that our desires would proceed from our heart or will.
          You said: I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

          If that is the case and God does ordain our desires then no, we don't have any control over how we act.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            But would not our desires also be ordained by God?
            If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
              If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...
              Right, because everything you do is the will of God.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Right, because everything you do is the will of God.
                May I use an analogy? Punch hit Judy. Those characters are puppets, therefore it was not really Punch who did the hitting; it was Punch's puppeteer who hit Judy. That argument you accept. However, Punch's actions were proximate causes of Judy's getting hit.
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  May I use an analogy? Punch hit Judy. Those characters are puppets, therefore it was not really Punch who did the hitting; it was Punch's puppeteer who hit Judy. That argument you accept. However, Punch's actions were proximate causes of Judy's getting hit.
                  Right, so is Punch morally responsible for hitting Judy? Would it be just to hold Punch accountable?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, so is Punch morally responsible for hitting Judy? Would it be just to hold Punch accountable?
                    Of course not! They're just puppets.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      Of course not! They're just puppets.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You said: I'm thinking that just because God ordains that we do something does not mean that we do not have any control over how we act. We can act according to our desires. Not all of our actions are involuntary reflexes.

                        If that is the case and God does ordain our desires then no, we don't have any control over how we act.
                        God has ultimate control; nothing happens without His permission. Just because God has ultimate control does not mean that we have no control over our actions. Not all of our actions are like reflexes. We can plan to do things and carry them out voluntarily.

                        I can drive a car and that is a voluntary action. It is not like sleep walking where the person does things without being aware or intending of what he is doing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                          If God deterministically determines (Micromanages) everything, then there can not exist a thing called disobedience. Ergo sin is thereby eliminated...
                          Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Right, because everything you do is the will of God.
                            There are different senses of the will of God. The will of God can be what God commands people or what God has planned to occur. God made a plan that Jesus would be nailed to a cross, but God did not command anyone to nail Jesus to the cross.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                              Just because He determines it does not mean that He commands it or is not offended by it. There is still such a thing called sin. Sin is the actions, attitudes, thoughts, and words that offend God.
                              But if God basically arranges that we'll behave in ways that offend him (basically what it means to determine it), how can we be genuinely blameworthy, logically speaking?
                              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                              Comment

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