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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Does God have an individual plan for everyone?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Actually this is one of the few places where Creationists and Evolutionists agree: time has a beginning and the moment time started is the moment creation begins. There is no existence of time outside of creation. Where is your quote from?
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Actually this is one of the few places where Creationists and Evolutionists agree: time has a beginning and the moment time started is the moment creation begins. There is no existence of time outside of creation. Where is your quote from?
    So you see the creation of time, the heavens and the earth, the Angels, man, and the past, present and the future as one simultaneous act. This denies the existence of Angels before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

    What quote are you asking about...?

    Time is synonymous with the existence of God himself... It exists because God exists... In the beginning refers to the work of creating the heavens and the earth and everything therein…
    If creation included the future, you are denying any freewill including that of Satan and The Angels of God...

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      From what I understand the Hebrew translated as "in the beginning" represents an absolute beginning, not just the beginning of "creation". This would point to a beginning of time itself.

      Source: CMI

      The first Hebrew word in Genesis 1:1 is bereshith; it occurs without the article and so is a proper noun, meaning ‘absolute beginning’.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Source.

      You may not agree with them when the beginning was, but they seem to have it right about what "the beginning" means in Genesis 1.
      It refers to the absolute beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. Were the angels created at this time also?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        I did say in a report that this may need to be split off at some point. I'll leave that to the mods in charge of this area.
        I would say that it is all relevant to whether God has, as a part of creation, created an inescapable plan/destiny for all men, and to whether God divinely enforces that plan. Still the Mods are the authority in this matter..
        Last edited by dacristoy; 06-24-2015, 11:21 AM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
          It refers to the absolute beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. Were the angels created at this time also?
          Yes, as they are created beings. "Heavens and earth" is a merism, which encompasses the totality of the created world, in other words, the universe. Space and time are intrinsically linked from what I understand. Since only God is eternal, and all other beings are temporal, they would have been created some time during creation week.

          Oh, and btw, I am not a Calvinist. From what I understand, I'm somewhere between Molinism and Arminianism, but I'm not dogmatic about it.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
            So you see the creation of time, the heavens and the earth, the Angels, man, and the past, present and the future as one simultaneous act. This denies the existence of Angels before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

            What quote are you asking about...?

            Time is synonymous with the existence of God himself... It exists because God exists... In the beginning refers to the work of creating the heavens and the earth and everything therein…
            If creation included the future, you are denying any freewill including that of Satan and The Angels of God...
            I have decided that you have your point of view and I have mine and neither one of us will change the other. Since I do not find this conversation edifying, I am done with it.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
              I have decided that you have your point of view and I have mine and neither one of us will change the other. Since I do not find this conversation edifying, I am done with it.
              What do you consider edifying Mr. Monk, would it help if I agreed with everything you said, void of any perspective on my own.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                What do you consider edifying Mr. Monk, would it help if I agreed with everything you said, void of any perspective on my own.
                There comes a point when one or both parties have come to the conclusion that they have reached an impasse, and therefore, further dialogue will be fruitless/unedifying and the dialogue should be wrapped up by agreeing to disagree on matters.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                  There comes a point when one or both parties have come to the conclusion that they have reached an impasse, and therefore, further dialogue will be fruitless/unedifying and the dialogue should be wrapped up by agreeing to disagree on matters.
                  Yes sir Mr. Scrawly. Having reached such an impasse, there are a multitude of ways to end said dialog without the attitude illustrated above. Always open is the option of simply moving on without rude and abrasive comments.

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                  • #69
                    No individual plan for our lives? Does this individual plan idea come from our individualistic culture? Have we let our culture influence even this point? The cultures of the OT and NT were decidedly corporal. Does that make a difference? God has a plan for your nation or the church in general, which is made up of individual members, but those members are a part of the whole.

                    But what about Jeremiah? Jeremiah 1:7: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,and before you were born I consecrated you;I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

                    God had a plan for his life. He knew Jeremiah and consecrated him for his work.

                    Or Paul in his journeys. Many times he was led to a specific place at a specific time. God was not simply letting him wander, but had a plan for his life. Paul also used this kind of language. "But on taking leave of them he said, “I will return to you if God wills,” and he set sail from Ephesus." Acts 18:21

                    So God could will him to make a specific decision or not. It is biblical to use this kind of language. In fact, James prescribes using this kind of language: "Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'" James 4:13-15

                    So it sounds to me like God is 'micro-managing.' He cares about decisions that we make in where we live and how we work as well as our being righteous. Both are part of his plan for us. I mean, if God knows how many hairs are on your head and cares, won't he care about our decisions?

                    I think that God has an overall plan, a plan for his body, and also a plan for individual believers. He's that big. And our abba.
                    sigpic

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by heartablaze View Post
                      No individual plan for our lives? Does this individual plan idea come from our individualistic culture? Have we let our culture influence even this point? The cultures of the OT and NT were decidedly corporal. Does that make a difference? God has a plan for your nation or the church in general, which is made up of individual members, but those members are a part of the whole.

                      But what about Jeremiah? Jeremiah 1:7: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,and before you were born I consecrated you;I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

                      God had a plan for his life. He knew Jeremiah and consecrated him for his work.

                      Or Paul in his journeys. Many times he was led to a specific place at a specific time. God was not simply letting him wander, but had a plan for his life. Paul also used this kind of language. "But on taking leave of them he said, “I will return to you if God wills,” and he set sail from Ephesus." Acts 18:21

                      So God could will him to make a specific decision or not. It is biblical to use this kind of language. In fact, James prescribes using this kind of language: "Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'" James 4:13-15

                      So it sounds to me like God is 'micro-managing.' He cares about decisions that we make in where we live and how we work as well as our being righteous. Both are part of his plan for us. I mean, if God knows how many hairs are on your head and cares, won't he care about our decisions?

                      I think that God has an overall plan, a plan for his body, and also a plan for individual believers. He's that big. And our abba.
                      I think Biblically, there were specific people called by God...Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Paul, just to name a few. Again though, they are the exception rather than the rule. God sometimes chooses a person for a specific time and place like Gideon, Amos...but it's for a finite period, then they return to their "regular life".
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                      • #71
                        2 Peter 3:9
                        The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


                        Appears God has a plan for all our lives, the fact that this plan is not consummated in all our lives is clear and present evidence that God does not micromanage...

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
                          I agree with this. I think he takes the life abundantly concept and goes to far with it.
                          Based on your comment, I don't think you quite grasp the concept of "Christian hedonism" - the doctrine is thoroughly biblical and faithful to the scriptures. In fact, I think the church at large could benefit tremendously from living as Christian hedonists, as challenging as it is:

                          http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/christian-hedonism

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            Based on your comment, I don't think you quite grasp the concept of "Christian hedonism" - the doctrine is thoroughly biblical and faithful to the scriptures. In fact, I think the church at large could benefit tremendously from living as Christian hedonists, as challenging as it is:

                            http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/christian-hedonism
                            Quite likely not. I've only dipped the toe into the proverbial water and that was my impression of it. I may have to look into it more if it's significantly different from what I thought originally.
                            We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              I think Biblically, there were specific people called by God...Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Paul, just to name a few. Again though, they are the exception rather than the rule. God sometimes chooses a person for a specific time and place like Gideon, Amos...but it's for a finite period, then they return to their "regular life".
                              Ok, I can get that God called out and chose specific people for specific tasks and that's why they were written in the Bible. I still don't buy that he doesn't have plans for each Christian's lives. I see it as his paintbrush adding strokes to the tapestry of the history of the world. Maybe we are one brush stroke, but it has a place and a purpose.

                              What about the James passage? How should we apply "If the Lord wills, we will do this or that?" I have specifically seen how being in a specific time and place has led to people coming to know about God. I think if we rely on the Holy Spirit, he will guide us in his will and plan for our lives and great fruit will come from that. Yes, a lot of it just involves being faithful, but also responding to the nudges of the Spirit. For example, a while back, I didn't want to go out, but felt this urge to get out on my bike and go. I ran into a girl I met the night before and she invited me to her home. From that, I was able to share the gospel with her and her family. This is what I mean when I say plan/will of God. God wills for us to spread the gospel generally, yes. And he wants us to be righteous and holy. Yes. But I think that he also interacts with us on a personal basis as well. When I want to make a decision, I pray about that. And we are to pray about all things. Paul prayed about where he was supposed to go and how to spend his time. I think we should. And that is what I mean by will of God/purpose of God. I also think if he can guide us with the small things he has an interest in the big things in our lives. Why wouldn't he? What y'all are saying just doesn't make sense to me.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by heartablaze View Post
                                Ok, I can get that God called out and chose specific people for specific tasks and that's why they were written in the Bible. I still don't buy that he doesn't have plans for each Christian's lives. I see it as his paintbrush adding strokes to the tapestry of the history of the world. Maybe we are one brush stroke, but it has a place and a purpose.
                                First of all, we need to distinguish between an individual life plan and divine appointments. I don't believe you can make a very good case from scripture on the former, but the later is all through scripture.


                                What about the James passage? How should we apply "If the Lord wills, we will do this or that?" I have specifically seen how being in a specific time and place has led to people coming to know about God. I think if we rely on the Holy Spirit, he will guide us in his will and plan for our lives and great fruit will come from that.
                                Again, divine appointments are different from a step by step, moment by moment life plan. If you notice James doesn't tell them not to make a plan, he admonishes them for not including God in the plan. The whole chapter (ch 4) talks about staying close to God and His Moral will, not being proud or boastful...James is painting a picture here, a contrast between humility and boastful.
                                Yes, a lot of it just involves being faithful, but also responding to the nudges of the Spirit. For example, a while back, I didn't want to go out, but felt this urge to get out on my bike and go. I ran into a girl I met the night before and she invited me to her home. From that, I was able to share the gospel with her and her family. This is what I mean when I say plan/will of God. God wills for us to spread the gospel generally, yes. And he wants us to be righteous and holy. Yes. But I think that he also interacts with us on a personal basis as well. When I want to make a decision, I pray about that. And we are to pray about all things. Paul prayed about where he was supposed to go and how to spend his time. I think we should. And that is what I mean by will of God/purpose of God. I also think if he can guide us with the small things he has an interest in the big things in our lives. Why wouldn't he? What y'all are saying just doesn't make sense to me.
                                Again, it's a difference between divine appointments furthering the Kingdom of God and thinking God has called you to be a school teacher. (for example)


                                Paul was sometimes directed to a divine appointment, and other times, he just decided which way to go. Look at Acts 15:36 - "36 Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing."
                                and Acts 20:16 - "16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost."
                                Notice Paul decides to go places without even praying about it. The truth is, there are only 15 – 20 examples documented in the 1st30 yrs of church history...and a lot of these were specific to Paul…yet we see him having to weigh options or simply decide a direction many times. So, they don't pass the "normalcy" test.
                                If you have some scriptures you would like to discuss, I would be more than glad to discuss them.
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                                Comment

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