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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Does God have an individual plan for everyone?

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  • #16
    I would agree with Freisen on this one. What really cinches it for me is the absence of language the traditional view in Scripture. Every time (that I'm aware of) when God has an individual plan for someone, it is given in visions, by prophets, by angels, etc . . . whereas there is a dearth of such being given by inward urges, a peace, etc . . .
    We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      Ok, but do you think that God has a "perfect plan" for us that we need to be trying to figure out? Or is it a "general" guidance kind of thing?
      I think, generally, it's a general guidance thing. I think occasionally God calls out a special man (or woman) for a special mission.

      Agreed! These would fall under God's Moral Will that's already documented in Scripture.
      Yeah, we just need to be obedient.

      And how do you know if it's something that doesn't matter? Where is that line...you see, it might matter what shirt you wear. What if God has already told someone to seek out the guy in the yellow button down shirt...
      Or if you are in the army, and you wake up praying "should I wear my green shirt, or my green shirt".

      Seriously, I think as we practice obedience to God, and sensitivity to His Spirit, he'll give us that discernment for "what matters".
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I think, generally, it's a general guidance thing. I think occasionally God calls out a special man (or woman) for a special mission.



        Yeah, we just need to be obedient.



        Or if you are in the army, and you wake up praying "should I wear my green shirt, or my green shirt".

        Seriously, I think as we practice obedience to God, and sensitivity to His Spirit, he'll give us that discernment for "what matters".
        Ok, so how do you think this general guidance works? Still small voice? Feeling(s)? If so, where do you find that in scripture.
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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        • #19
          Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post
          I would agree with Freisen on this one. What really cinches it for me is the absence of language the traditional view in Scripture. Every time (that I'm aware of) when God has an individual plan for someone, it is given in visions, by prophets, by angels, etc . . . whereas there is a dearth of such being given by inward urges, a peace, etc . . .
          I agree! You and I are on the same page here!
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            Ok, so how do you think this general guidance works? Still small voice? Feeling(s)? If so, where do you find that in scripture.
            1 Cor 2:6-10 comes to mind first off. Along with John 16:13 and Romans 9:1. I think the best way is to be familiar with the Bible (2 Tim 3:16), so the Holy Spirit can "call to remembrance" those things we were taught (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit, besides guiding us, prays for us (Romans 8:26).

            If you have "feelings" that contradict the Bible, you're in trouble. The Holy Spirit is not going to guide us against what the Scripture already says.

            Those are just some quick thoughts.

            Oh, and the counsel of mature Christians helps a bunch.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              And I also like to point out that there are three things (in my opinion) that you really don't need to pray about, regarding the Will of God.

              A) Things God has specifically said do NOT do - no need to ask Him if you can
              2) Things God has specifically told us TO do - no need to ask "God, should I love my brothers?"
              III) Things that really don't matter - like what color shirt I should wear or whether I should have my eggs over medium or scrambled.

              That's just some real quick thoughts off the top of my big empty head.
              I quite agree. I think the struggle for people like me is when you want to do more for God and can't discern what He wants for you. The scriptures are pretty clear that I am to proclaim the Gospel. There is no Scripture that I'll find that says "TM is to go to Kansas City and proclaim the Gospel there."

              One would like to think of serving God as crystal clear callings. Its not. Its so murky and subject to opinion. Sometimes I feel like Frodo: I'm astray in the wilderness bearing a great burden without guidance. Being among mature Christians might help. One does come to want that one time encounter that sets your path for life.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                1 Cor 2:6-10 comes to mind first off. Along with John 16:13 and Romans 9:1. I think the best way is to be familiar with the Bible (2 Tim 3:16), so the Holy Spirit can "call to remembrance" those things we were taught (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit, besides guiding us, prays for us (Romans 8:26).

                If you have "feelings" that contradict the Bible, you're in trouble. The Holy Spirit is not going to guide us against what the Scripture already says.

                Those are just some quick thoughts.

                Oh, and the counsel of mature Christians helps a bunch.
                It looks like you and I agree (for the most part) with Friesen. Now, the question I need to ask of mature Christian counsel......is teaching that God doesn't "necessarily" have an detailed, individual plan for your life, going to cause some to question their faith? Is it too "controversial"?
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Let's make it simpler. A good boss would know better than micromanage his employees.
                  Let me first be clear about what I believe. "God has chosen within his infinite wisdom to bring his ultimate plan for his creation without micromanaging everything."

                  What is a good boss, would that be the one that lives in a mansion while paying his employees minimum wage or less. What "good boss" do you know that has the infinite wisdom to do so? Does such a person now or ever has resided on this earth?

                  A good parent would not micromanage every detail in their children's lives but give them choices. Are you aware that micromanaging is not a good thing?
                  A good parent does not micromanage because they lack the power and knowledge to do so. God possesses both but has chosen not to.

                  What is your definition of micromanaging? Why should God have to tell you EXACTLY what to have for breakfast? Or tell you to wear the black socks and not the white socks. My 2 year old niece has more choice than that. Are you saying that God should treat us like helpless newborns that can't do anything? Yes, God is sovereign, but said sovereignty does not mean He directly causes every little thing (including sin???) to happen (it would just be a video game he programmed and played then).
                  When I look and consider what mess man has created for ourselves because God does not micromanage, from whence do we derive the nerve to tell God what he should and should not do, or what is good and not good. We have not used God's blessing of volition to do anything but bring pain and suffering to the earth. Now you seek the advantage of being able to inform God of what is good and what is bad. Here, let me help you with that, "God is good, we are bad." The only reason that we have not destroyed ourselves with our choices is because God steps in and limits our ability to do so.

                  CONCLUSION: GOD DOES NOT MICROMANAGE HUMAN AFFAIRS, STILL I LIKE TO IMAGINE AN EXISTENCE IN WHICH HE DOES...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                    Let me first be clear about what I believe. "God has chosen within his infinite wisdom to bring his ultimate plan for his creation without micromanaging everything."

                    What is a good boss, would that be the one that lives in a mansion while paying his employees minimum wage or less. What "good boss" do you know that has the infinite wisdom to do so? Does such a person now or ever has resided on this earth?



                    A good parent does not micromanage because they lack the power and knowledge to do so. God possesses both but has chosen not to.



                    When I look and consider what mess man has created for ourselves because God does not micromanage, from whence do we derive the nerve to tell God what he should and should not do, or what is good and not good. We have not used God's blessing of volition to do anything but bring pain and suffering to the earth. Now you seek the advantage of being able to inform God of what is good and what is bad. Here, let me help you with that, "God is good, we are bad." The only reason that we have not destroyed ourselves with our choices is because God steps in and limits our ability to do so.

                    CONCLUSION: GOD DOES NOT MICROMANAGE HUMAN AFFAIRS, STILL I LIKE TO IMAGINE AN EXISTENCE IN WHICH HE DOES...
                    Okay. Are you a Calvinist? Because I don't hold to all five points of TULIP. And ultimately it does not matter what you or I think. And we all have misconceptions.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                    • #25
                      The analogy I heard was of a river. God's plan is a river flowing downhill. He has a plan that includes everyone, and everything. It will be accomplished whether you want it to or not. You can "go with the flow" and everything is easier, or you can try to dam it up or try standing in the middle. But the water will find it's way to where it is going.

                      So basically you can go with God's plan or you can not go with it. But if you don't then God's plan will still happen the way he wants and even your stubborness will become part of it. After all, God knows everything including what you will do or not do, and he knows the future.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                        It looks like you and I agree (for the most part) with Friesen. Now, the question I need to ask of mature Christian counsel......is teaching that God doesn't "necessarily" have an detailed, individual plan for your life, going to cause some to question their faith? Is it too "controversial"?
                        Sometimes the entrenched, traditional belief needs to be examined. This is not a bad thing - if it's true then that will come out, if it's not true then that also should come out and belief should be adjusted to reflect truth. So sometimes the pot needs to be stirred a bit, and inevitably this will cause some controversy. That doesn't mean you should stir the pot just to create controversy, but you should have a specific point you want to get across. What are you trying to accomplish with this series and how does that aid the maturation of peoples faith and the unity of the church?

                        As far as shaking someones faith: imo if their faith is based on God having an individual detailed plan for everyone, then that faith needs to be shaken until it rests on the foundation of Christ.

                        edit: That's my counsel, mature not guaranteed .
                        Last edited by alaskazimm; 06-15-2015, 01:15 PM.
                        We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          BTW Littlejoe, Sorry I haven't Answered. God's plan for everyone is salvation. Whether they pick it or not is up to them. I do believe everyone was created with a purpose but that has something to do with whether or not they choose redemption. I'm also a fan of the idea that one reason once we are made (hey we do not choose our parents) We are supposed to learn to love like Christ.
                          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                          George Bernard Shaw

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The analogy I heard was of a river. God's plan is a river flowing downhill. He has a plan that includes everyone, and everything. It will be accomplished whether you want it to or not. You can "go with the flow" and everything is easier, or you can try to dam it up or try standing in the middle. But the water will find it's way to where it is going.

                            So basically you can go with God's plan or you can not go with it. But if you don't then God's plan will still happen the way he wants and even your stubborness will become part of it. After all, God knows everything including what you will do or not do, and he knows the future.
                            Right, that would be what is commonly called (and acknowledged in Friesen's book, as well as described as you did here) as God's Sovereign will...
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                              BTW Littlejoe, Sorry I haven't Answered. God's plan for everyone is salvation. Whether they pick it or not is up to them. I do believe everyone was created with a purpose but that has something to do with whether or not they choose redemption. I'm also a fan of the idea that one reason once we are made (hey we do not choose our parents) We are supposed to learn to love like Christ.
                              I agree with pretty much everything here...and think that this would pretty much fall into God's Moral Will...I guess the one caveat would be created with a purpose if they accept "edemption". Let's say for the sake of argument, that "Joe" has accepted God's salvation and is considered by himself and all concerned, "redeemed". Do you think it's up to Joe to find out exactly what God wants him to do...i.e. go to college, (then of course which one), if he meets a girl he really, REALLY likes, does he marry her wait another i.o.w., is this "the one from God" or do I wait?...What profession does God want me to go into...That's the thing I'm asking from those who might espouse the "Traditional View". If so, what do you base that on?
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                My question that I struggle with on this topic is: is God's plan for your life necessarily going to be enjoyable?
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                                Comment

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