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The Tree In The Center of The Garden

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  • #31
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    Romans was written to those under the law.

    Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

    They were being TAUGHT how sin was FORMED. Sin did not exist before the fall. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Romans 4:15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

    Adam was under the command to not eat from the tree, and he disobeyed. This was a deliberate act, and is specifically labeled a sin. You trying to worm your way out of it's just not going to work.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

      Adam was under the command to not eat from the tree, and he disobeyed. This was a deliberate act, and is specifically labeled a sin. You trying to worm your way out of it's just not going to work.
      What doesn't work is this:

      God says it's wrong to eat the fruit of knowledge of right and wrong.

      Adam doesn't know right from wrong.

      Adam eats and THEN realises what he did was wrong

      God punishes Adam for choosing wrong.


      The reason it didn't work is that Adam did not consciously choose a wrong choice. He couldn't. So he didn't sin. So God could not punish him.

      ____________
      This works:

      God cautions Adam not to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, because it will harm him.

      Adam eats the fruit and he becomes accountable.

      Being accountable means that from that time, he is a sinner.

      Sinners cannot stay in God's presence, and to subdue creation including himself he must be in God's presence.

      God removes Adam from His presence.


      _____
      Jesus is the second Adam.

      Those who are in Him can be in God's presence.

      They can put to death the deeds of the body.

      They can subdue creation.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post
        Romans was written to those under the law.

        Romans 3:19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

        They were being TAUGHT how sin was FORMED. Sin did not exist before the fall. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

        Romans 4:15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
        Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

        Adam became a sinner when he ate from the tree. It's that simple.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

          Adam became a sinner when he ate from the tree. It's that simple.
          He's been trying to worm his way out of that one for several responses now.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

            Adam became a sinner when he ate from the tree. It's that simple.
            True.

            Yet, . . "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. . . .)" -- Romans 5:13 . . . .
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #36
              Would disobeying the command not to eat be construed as breaking a law?
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                True.

                Yet, . . "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. . . .)" -- Romans 5:13 . . . .
                Absolutely. The law does not apply to the insane and the underage. So although a penal code exists, as far as mentally incompetent persons are concerned, it is as if there is no law...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                  Absolutely. The law does not apply to the insane and the underage. So although a penal code exists, as far as mentally incompetent persons are concerned, it is as if there is no law...
                  Adam was neither a child nor a mentally incompetent person.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Adam was neither a child nor a mentally incompetent person.
                    Knowing good from evil is the definition of mental competency. Adam did not have it:

                    Deuteronomy 1:39And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad--they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.

                    Isaiah 7:15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      True.

                      Yet, . . "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. . . .)" -- Romans 5:13 . . . .
                      It means that if there is no law to break then you are not a sinner (breaker of that law). So if Adam was a sinner (Rm 5:12), then he must have broken a law. Get it?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Also Genesis 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

                        Pretty clear that it was not a warning or suggestion. God himself says it was a command.

                        --
                        Interlinear:

                        NAS – And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" - (Genesis 3:11)
                        BHS – וַיֹּ֕אמֶר מִ֚י הִגִּ֣יד לְךָ֔ כִּ֥י עֵירֹ֖ם אָ֑תָּה הֲמִן־הָעֵ֗ץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֥י אֲכָל־מִמֶּ֖נּוּ אָכָֽלְתָּ׃ - (Genesis 3:11)

                        The word for "Commanded" is:
                        צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ

                        tsaw-vaw - to command, charge, give orders,

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Also Genesis 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

                          Pretty clear that it was not a warning or suggestion. God himself says it was a command.

                          --
                          Interlinear:

                          NAS – And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" - (Genesis 3:11)
                          BHS – וַיֹּ֕אמֶר מִ֚י הִגִּ֣יד לְךָ֔ כִּ֥י עֵירֹ֖ם אָ֑תָּה הֲמִן־הָעֵ֗ץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ לְבִלְתִּ֥י אֲכָל־מִמֶּ֖נּוּ אָכָֽלְתָּ׃ - (Genesis 3:11)

                          The word for "Commanded" is:
                          צִוִּיתִ֛יךָ

                          tsaw-vaw - to command, charge, give orders,
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It means that if there is no law to break then you are not a sinner (breaker of that law). So if Adam was a sinner (Rm 5:12), then he must have broken a law. Get it?
                          http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1225

                          Quote
                          Adolescence: Akin to Mental Retardation?

                          The human brain took center stage in 2002 when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against the death penalty for mentally retarded persons. In that case (Atkins v. Virginia), six of the nine justices agreed that executing a convict with limited intellectual capacity, Daryl Atkins, would amount to cruel and unusual punishment. Instructing the state of Virginia to forgo the death penalty in such cases, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote: "Because of their disabilities in areas of reasoning, judgment, and control of their impulses, [mentally retarded persons] do not act with the level of moral culpability that characterizes the most serious adult criminal conduct."

                          To those under the law, you and I, Atkins' act is murder. However, he is not under the law, so for him it is not murder.

                          To those under the law, you and I, Adam sinned. However, he was not under the law, so for him, it was not a sin.


                          Commands are orders. Orders can be either warnings or laws.

                          The government warned the public not to smoke tobacco, as it harms the lungs. Is there a penalty for people who harm their lungs by disobeying the warning? No!


                          The government made a law banning the public from using marijuana because it caused disorderly conduct. Is there a penalty for people who disobey the law? Yes!


                          Remember, knowing good from evil is a blessing. However, it must be accompanied by the ability to overcome the deeds of the body. Adam jumped the gun.
                          Last edited by footwasher; 05-20-2015, 01:13 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1225

                            Quote
                            Adolescence: Akin to Mental Retardation?

                            The human brain took center stage in 2002 when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against the death penalty for mentally retarded persons. In that case (Atkins v. Virginia), six of the nine justices agreed that executing a convict with limited intellectual capacity, Daryl Atkins, would amount to cruel and unusual punishment. Instructing the state of Virginia to forgo the death penalty in such cases, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote: "Because of their disabilities in areas of reasoning, judgment, and control of their impulses, [mentally retarded persons] do not act with the level of moral culpability that characterizes the most serious adult criminal conduct."

                            To those under the law, you and I, Atkins' act is murder. However, he is not under the law, so for him it is not murder.

                            To those under the law, you and I, Adam sinned. However, he was not under the law, so for him, it was not a sin.


                            Commands are orders. Orders can be either warnings or laws.

                            The government warned the public not to smoke tobacco, as it harms the lungs. Is there a penalty for people who harm their lungs by disobeying the warning? No!


                            The government made a law banning the public from using marijuana because it caused disorderly conduct. Is there a penalty for people who disobey the law? Yes!


                            Remember, knowing good from evil is a blessing. However, it must be accompanied by the ability to overcome the deeds of the body. Adam jumped the gun.
                            so in other words you have nothing. got it.

                            And "knowing" as used in genesis means to experience it. Adam was not a retarded person. He knew it was wrong to disobey God. So he knew right from wrong. He had never experienced doing wrong before but he knew what it was. I don't have to murder someone to know what murder is, or that it is wrong and against the law. But if I did murder someone then I would have experienced murder and would understand at a deeper level what I had done and the consequences I would have to go through.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              It means that if there is no law to break then you are not a sinner (breaker of that law). So if Adam was a sinner (Rm 5:12), then he must have broken a law. Get it?
                              "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; . . ." -- Romans 2:12.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; . . ." -- Romans 2:12.


                                if you are not a sinner without the law, how can you have sinned? Please read the verses you post before posting them. It is saying that you can be a sinner and break God's commandments even if you are a gentile. Reading in context usually helps.

                                Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

                                12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

                                Comment

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