What are the essentials of the genuine Christian faith?

[37818]

. . . born of the Father before all ages. . . .

This false dogam is not found in the word of God. And is a basis error.

. . . one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins . . .

If one understandes this to refer to the rite of water baptism this is a heresy.

[One Bad Pig]

born of the Father before all ages

This false dogam is not found in the word of God. And is a basis error.

Your opinion on this, which is in the extreme minority, is why you are not orthodox. The Word was with God in the beginning (Jn. 1:1), and is the only begotten of the Father (Jn. 1:14). How could the Word be with God without being begotten? You are treading close to Arianism.

one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins

If one understandes this to refer to the rite of water baptism this is a heresy.

It is a direct quote of Mark 1:4/Luke 3:3.

[37818]

Your opinion on this, which is in the extreme minority, is why you are not orthodox. The Word was with God in the beginning (Jn. 1:1), and is the only begotten of the Father (Jn. 1:14). How could the Word be with God without being begotten? You are treading close to Arianism.

No. I am fully against Arianism. The word translated "only-begotten" does not mean to be born. But rather to uniquely "exist." And the Word who was always with God always existed with God and was God too.

one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins

If one understandes this to refer to the rite of water baptism this is a heresy.

It is a direct quote of Mark 1:4/Luke 3:3.

No it is not. It is at best a misquote.

[Leonhard]

[QUOTE=37818;308618]No. I am fully against Arianism. The word translated "only-begotten" does not mean to be born. But rather to uniquely "exist." And the Word who was always with God always existed with God and was God too.

But Word is eternally subordinate to the Father, proceeding from Him. Even as the Father and the Son share the same substance.

No it is not. It is at best a misquote.

"4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Mark 1:4
"3 He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins," Luke 3:3
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

It doesn't look like a misquote to me. The words are almost verbatim lifted off from those parts of the Bible, you're merely contending that the Bible teaches a baptism of forgiveness, even though that is exactly what John the Baptist taught. And he was not in anyway rebuked by Christ for doing so. Rather he was called the most pious man on the Earth.

Though its not as if Christ was silent on the nature of baptism when it came to salvation. When you repent, you must be baptised.

"16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16
"3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

After St Paul's conversion, his first act is to get baptised.

"18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized," Acts 9:18

St Paul also preached baptism as part of what was needed for salvation.

"16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’"
"9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1st Corinthian 9-11

Likewise with St. Peter.

"21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1st Peter 3:21
"38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.”" Acts 9:18

I have no doubt you will contend this, but to merely say that its a misquote of what the Bible is saying is wrong. The Apostles themselves confessed a baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

[One Bad Pig]

The word translated "only-begotten" does not mean to be born. But rather to uniquely "exist." And the Word who was always with God always existed with God and was God too.

This is more a translation issue than a meaning issue. The Greek is probably better translated "begotten of the Father before all ages" than "born of the Father before all ages." What is intended is expressing His (eternal) relation to the Father.

From the link:

Source: Fr. Irenij

The second term, γεννηθέντα, comes from γεννάω, 'to give birth'.

So we have a phrase in the Creed which twice emphasises that the Son's existence is understood as being characterised by His relation to the Father, which is described as His (a) being begotten by the Father, and (b) being only-begotten of the Father. 'To beget' and 'to give birth' are really quite synonymous in terms of language, so the difference in English translation there is not the real nuance of the Creed. It is focused on the fact of the Son's being uniquely begotten of His Father.

© Copyright Original Source

[37818]

No. I am fully against Arianism. The word translated "only-begotten" does not mean to be born. But rather to uniquely "exist." And the Word who was always with God always existed with God and was God too.

But Word is eternally subordinate to the Father, proceeding from Him. Even as the Father and the Son share the same substance.

He the Word was both eternally subordinate and eternally co-equal.
Eternally subordinate being "with God" (John 1:1, 2) and eternally co-equal, "was God" (John 1:1, 3; John 5:18 etc).
The phrase "born of the Father before all ages" is not according to God's holy word.

"4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Mark 1:4
"3 He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins," Luke 3:3
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

It doesn't look like a misquote to me. The words are almost verbatim lifted off from those parts of the Bible, you're merely contending that the Bible teaches a baptism of forgiveness, even though that is exactly what John the Baptist taught. And he was not in anyway rebuked by Christ for doing so. Rather he was called the most pious man on the Earth.

Repentance is for the forgiveness of sins. And John's baptism was to be of that repentance. And so the holy scripture says. (Repentance is for the forgiveness of sins. ". . . to give repentance to Israel and remission of sins." -- Acts 5:31.)

Though its not as if Christ was silent on the nature of baptism when it came to salvation. When you repent, you must be baptised.

Yes. Even when their sins have been forgiven and then baptized (Acts 10;43-48). The baptism was not the requirement in order for sins to be forgiven.

"16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

The requirement there is believing not the baptism.

"3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

Has absolutely nothing to do with baptism. It has to do with the difference between being born naturally versus being born by God's Spirit. Two different births (v.6).

After St Paul's conversion, his first act is to get baptised.

"18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized," Acts 9:18

Yes, and that does not mean he was baptized in order to be forgiven.

St Paul also preached baptism as part of what was needed for salvation.

No. St Paul taught just the opposite. Even as he did baptize others, yet St Paul taught, ". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17. Baptism while commanded with the gospel is distinct from the gospel that St Paul preached.

"16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’"

From Acts 22:16, where Saul was instructed to do three things:
1) Get up
2) be baptized.
3) have your sins washed away, calling on his name. Which BTW St John taught the saved should do 1 John 1:7-9.

"9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1st Corinthian 9-11

"you were washed" is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit and the word of God, it is not talking about water baptism. ". . . in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." Compare Acts 10:43-44. And John 15:3.

Likewise with St. Peter.

"21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1st Peter 3:21

In the same way Noah and his family was saved by the flood (v.20}. The flood which destroyed the world that was (2nd Peter 2:3) as the type. And baptism prefigured by the flood is the anti-type. As St Paul says, " . . . so we also should walk in newness of life."(Romans 6:3-4) meaning we should live for God and no longer to live for this world.

"38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.”"

Again see Acts 10:43-44.

I have no doubt you will contend this, but to merely say that its a misquote of what the Bible is saying is wrong. The Apostles themselves confessed a baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Actually you have not show this. I understand that is how you [mis]understand those references.

[37818]

This is more a translation issue than a meaning issue. The Greek is probably better translated "begotten of the Father before all ages" than "born of the Father before all ages." What is intended is expressing His (eternal) relation to the Father.

The Greek γεννηθέντα is not used in the NT of Christ's preexistence.
The Greek μονογενῆ being translated "only-begotten." -γενῆ from γίνομαι meaning to be. The Son of God has a unique existence - hence called the "only-begotten."

RSV, translate it as "only." The NIV as "one and only."

And γίνομαι is not the same word as γεννάω.

From the link:

Source: Fr. Irenij

The second term, γεννηθέντα, comes from γεννάω, 'to give birth'.

So we have a phrase in the Creed which twice emphasises that the Son's existence is understood as being characterised by His relation to the Father, which is described as His (a) being begotten by the Father, and (b) being only-begotten of the Father. 'To beget' and 'to give birth' are really quite synonymous in terms of language, so the difference in English translation there is not the real nuance of the Creed. It is focused on the fact of the Son's being uniquely begotten of His Father.

© Copyright Original Source

See my above comment.