Unpacking Foreknowledge vs. Foreseeing

[Bill the Cat]

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

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[alaskazimm]

• Edited by a Moderator •

There's your confusion. Knowing does not *necessarily* mean deciding.

[JimL]

Moderator's note: This area is for theists only.

[Bill the Cat]

Bill, You can certainly believe that if you want, but I continue to assert that it's not logical...because, if God knows every single thing I will ever do, or will ever not do, and knows it from eternity, and creates a world based on that knowledge, all you have done is pushed the decision back to before the world was created...but God still decides what I do based on what world he chooses to create.

Not true. He chooses to create the only one He perfectly foreknows. There is no decision on His part in that aspect.

(If I understand your argument correctly). You see, when God settles on creating a world; one where he already knows all the decisions that are going to be made, at that point, all my decisions are already "made", and which ones I make are predetermined by God.

Based on His foreseeing those decisions. We make them, and He actuates them. Free will and foreknowledge go hand-in-hand.

AFAICS, it makes no difference whether my choices are settled in God's mind an eternity before I make them (or the day before I make them) the very fact that they are settled an eternity before I make them means that I am not the one who settles them. God does.

Not so. The following analogy is flawed, but adequate. God is like a DVD viewer at home who already knows the entire movie. He inserts the disc, controls when it will be played, paused, etc. But He doesn't make the actors recite the lines, but He already knows exactly what lines will be spoken. He is in control of how fast or slow the movie goes, when it begins, and when it ends, but does not cause the events in the movie to happen. As I said, God knew before I was ever born that I would be typing right now, and thus in advance created a world where I would be right here and right now typing. He did not cause me to type, but created the environment by which I can do so of my own free will.

[37818]

You are not getting that from scripture, you are getting that from tradition...and St. Augustine, who got it from the Greeks. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God knows everything

Jeremiah 3:6,7 NASB - Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. ⁷I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

God Thought Israel would turn back to Him, but she doesn't

Isaiah 5:1-4 - 1: Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2: He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then [b]He expected[/b] it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3: "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4: "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God thinks it will be one way, but it doesn't turn out like he Planned.

Two things. My argument was deduced from a concept of infinity that I accept. And that God of the OT was always the Son of God in my understanding. His knowledge is not always drawn from His infinite divine being [compare Mark 13:32]. So open theism is not true. My view of the pre-incarnate Son of God is.

Added note: God has expectations of choices self willed beings should make. It is called obedience. (Romans 3:23)

[Littlejoe]

The thing you do not grasp is that God is infinite in His omniscience. We are finite. And there is no way in the finite scheme of things we can make it logical. [Except accepting it as true for God, that He fully knows our choices we make without exception. And we are responsible for our choices.]

You are not getting that from scripture, you are getting that from tradition...and St. Augustine, who got it from the Greeks. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God knows everything

Jeremiah 3:6,7 NASB - Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. ⁷I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

God Thought Israel would turn back to Him, but she doesn't

Isaiah 5:1-4 - 1: Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2: He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then [b]He expected[/b] it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3: "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4: "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God thinks it will be one way, but it doesn't turn out like he Planned.

[37818]

I am having difficulty determining what you are saying here. The proper usage here is DUE to , not "do to". See the end note here: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/dueto.html

The phrase "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" refers to being chosen by God based on His foreknowledge, as does the phrase "to be obedient to Jesus Christ". Because God foreknows us and our choice to accept Christ, He chooses us before the world was made, sanctifies us at the time we display the faith He foreknew, and empowers us to do the good works of Christ.

First, thank you. If my life depended on grammar, spelling and punctuation, I would have been dead beginning with 3rd grade, if not sooner.

God's choosing us in time, as is, before time is due to being through sanctification of the Spirit. Before time: see 1 Peter 1:2, in time: see 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14. Without which, we would all be toast (Romans 3:11).

[37818]

Bill, You can certainly believe that if you want, but I continue to assert that it's not logical...because, if God knows every single thing I will ever do, or will ever not do, and knows it from eternity, and creates a world based on that knowledge, all you have done is pushed the decision back to before the world was created...but God still decides what I do based on what world he chooses to create. (If I understand your argument correctly). You see, when God settles on creating a world; one where he already knows all the decisions that are going to be made, at that point, all my decisions are already "made", and which ones I make are predetermined by God. AFAICS, it makes no difference whether my choices are settled in God's mind an eternity before I make them (or the day before I make them) the very fact that they are settled an eternity before I make them means that I am not the one who settles them. God does.

The thing you do not grasp is that God is infinite in His omniscience. We are finite. And there is no way in the finite scheme of things we can make it logical. [Except accepting it as true for God, that He fully knows our choices we make without exception. And we are responsible for our choices.]

[Littlejoe]

Sure we can. God creates the world based on His foreknowledge of our decision before that world was even created. Were we to choose something else, God would have never foreknown the first thing, and the world would have been created in which our choice was made real. He can not "unknow" what He knows, but the cause of its existence is the foreknowledge of the free will decision.

Bill, You can certainly believe that if you want, but I continue to assert that it's not logical...because, if God knows every single thing I will ever do, or will ever not do, and knows it from eternity, and creates a world based on that knowledge, all you have done is pushed the decision back to before the world was created...but God still decides what I do based on what world he chooses to create. (If I understand your argument correctly). You see, when God settles on creating a world; one where he already knows all the decisions that are going to be made, at that point, all my decisions are already "made", and which ones I make are predetermined by God. AFAICS, it makes no difference whether my choices are settled in God's mind an eternity before I make them (or the day before I make them) the very fact that they are settled an eternity before I make them means that I am not the one who settles them. God does.

[Bill the Cat]

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol.../foreseen.html

While our choices are real. God foreknows through the sanctification of the Spirit. It is not do to us meriting by God foreseeing our choice. Our choice is do to the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience (1 Peter 1:2).

I am having difficulty determining what you are saying here. The proper usage here is DUE to , not "do to". See the end note here: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/dueto.html

The phrase "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" refers to being chosen by God based on His foreknowledge, as does the phrase "to be obedient to Jesus Christ". Because God foreknows us and our choice to accept Christ, He chooses us before the world was made, sanctifies us at the time we display the faith He foreknew, and empowers us to do the good works of Christ.

[37818]

Sure we can. God creates the world based on His foreknowledge of our decision before that world was even created. Were we to choose something else, God would have never foreknown the first thing, and the world would have been created in which our choice was made real. He can not "unknow" what He knows, but the cause of its existence is the foreknowledge of the free will decision.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol.../foreseen.html

While our choices are real. God foreknows through the sanctification of the Spirit. It is not do to us meriting by God foreseeing our choice. Our choice is do to the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience (1 Peter 1:2).

[Bill the Cat]

Ah! Ok, you are using them in a semantic range based on how we perceive it rather than an actual difference. Is that correct?

No, we can't, if Gods foreknowledge or foreseeing is absolute, then He already knows every decision we will ever make. Logically therefore, it must happen exactly as He knows it. Since we could not do other than what God already knows to be true, we therefore cannot do otherwise. Therefore, (logically) we can't make free will decisions, it just seems that way...which is why I'm an Open Theist.

Sure we can. God creates the world based on His foreknowledge of our decision before that world was even created. Were we to choose something else, God would have never foreknown the first thing, and the world would have been created in which our choice was made real. He can not "unknow" what He knows, but the cause of its existence is the foreknowledge of the free will decision.

[Littlejoe]

Well one has to do with "sight" and the other has to do with "knowing." Anyway there are more references. Acts 2:27 reference should have been verse 31.

". . . Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: . . ." -- Acts 2:23.

The idea of God needing to foresee is contrary to His immutability and omniscience. To make sense of this, it is easier for us to wrap our minds around it looking at it as foreseeing. Our choices are real. We frame it as free will. We are self willed beings. And how we can make different choices and that God already knows, it is just easier for us to think of it as foreseeing.

Ah! Ok, you are using them in a semantic range based on how we perceive it rather than an actual difference. Is that correct?

[Others what to frame it and say our ability to choose does not really exist. Which is not true, we can and do make self willed choices.]

No, we can't, if Gods foreknowledge or foreseeing is absolute, then He already knows every decision we will ever make. Logically therefore, it must happen exactly as He knows it. Since we could not do other than what God already knows to be true, we therefore cannot do otherwise. Therefore, (logically) we can't make free will decisions, it just seems that way...which is why I'm an Open Theist.

[37818]

The fact that two different terms are used for the same thing doesn't make them different. To me that's like saying Faith in God and Trust in God aren't the same thing. Two different terms, but the same thing. You seem to be saying there is a difference...I'm still not seeing it.

Well one has to do with "sight" and the other has to do with "knowing." Anyway there are more references. Acts 2:27 reference should have been verse 31.

". . . Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: . . ." -- Acts 2:23.

The idea of God needing to foresee is contrary to His immutability and omniscience. To make sense of this, it is easier for us to wrap our minds around it looking at it as foreseeing. Our choices are real. We frame it as free will. We are self willed beings. And how we can make different choices and that God already knows, it is just easier for us to think of it as foreseeing. [Others what to frame it and say our ability to choose does not really exist. Which is not true, we can and do make self willed choices.]

[Littlejoe]

The word of God uses "foreseeing" twice in the NT.

David as a prophet speaking of Christ's bodily resurrection:
". . . He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. . . ." -- Acts 2:27

And the Apostle Paul saying how holy scripture foresaw salvation for the nations through Abraham,
". . . And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. . . ." -- Galatians 3:8.

Now NT holy scripture speaks of foreknowing (Strong in his dictionary sees it same as foresees):

". . . My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. . . ." -- Acts 26:4, 5.

". . . For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . ." -- Romans 8:29.

". . . God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, . . ." -- Romans 11:2.

". . . who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:20. ASV (KJV was foreordained)

". . . Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:17. (ASV knowing [these things] beforehand}

The fact that two different terms are used for the same thing doesn't make them different. To me that's like saying Faith in God and Trust in God aren't the same thing. Two different terms, but the same thing. You seem to be saying there is a difference...I'm still not seeing it.