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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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Unpacking Foreknowledge vs. Foreseeing

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    You are not getting that from scripture, you are getting that from tradition...and St. Augustine, who got it from the Greeks. Nowhere in scripture does it say that God knows everything

    Jeremiah 3:6,7 NASB - Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, “Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. 7I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

    God Thought Israel would turn back to Him, but she doesn't

    Isaiah 5:1-4 - 1: Let me sing now for my well-beloved
    A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
    My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
    2: He dug it all around, removed its stones,
    And planted it with the choicest vine
    And He built a tower in the middle of it
    And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
    Then [b]He expected[/b] it to produce good grapes,
    But it produced only worthless ones.
    3: "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
    Judge between Me and My vineyard.
    4: "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
    Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
    God thinks it will be one way, but it doesn't turn out like he Planned.
    Two things. My argument was deduced from a concept of infinity that I accept. And that God of the OT was always the Son of God in my understanding. His knowledge is not always drawn from His infinite divine being [compare Mark 13:32]. So open theism is not true. My view of the pre-incarnate Son of God is.

    Added note: God has expectations of choices self willed beings should make. It is called obedience. (Romans 3:23)
    Last edited by 37818; 03-19-2015, 07:49 AM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      Bill, You can certainly believe that if you want, but I continue to assert that it's not logical...because, if God knows every single thing I will ever do, or will ever not do, and knows it from eternity, and creates a world based on that knowledge, all you have done is pushed the decision back to before the world was created...but God still decides what I do based on what world he chooses to create.
      Not true. He chooses to create the only one He perfectly foreknows. There is no decision on His part in that aspect.

      (If I understand your argument correctly). You see, when God settles on creating a world; one where he already knows all the decisions that are going to be made, at that point, all my decisions are already "made", and which ones I make are predetermined by God.
      Based on His foreseeing those decisions. We make them, and He actuates them. Free will and foreknowledge go hand-in-hand.

      AFAICS, it makes no difference whether my choices are settled in God's mind an eternity before I make them (or the day before I make them) the very fact that they are settled an eternity before I make them means that I am not the one who settles them. God does.
      Not so. The following analogy is flawed, but adequate. God is like a DVD viewer at home who already knows the entire movie. He inserts the disc, controls when it will be played, paused, etc. But He doesn't make the actors recite the lines, but He already knows exactly what lines will be spoken. He is in control of how fast or slow the movie goes, when it begins, and when it ends, but does not cause the events in the movie to happen. As I said, God knew before I was ever born that I would be typing right now, and thus in advance created a world where I would be right here and right now typing. He did not cause me to type, but created the environment by which I can do so of my own free will.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

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      • #18
        Moderator's note: This area is for theists only.
        Last edited by KingsGambit; 03-19-2015, 11:22 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Edited by a Moderator
          There's your confusion. Knowing does not *necessarily* mean deciding.
          Last edited by Bill the Cat; 03-20-2015, 07:37 AM.
          We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

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          • #20
            Moderated By: Bill the Cat

            Please look at the sub-forum that this thread is in now. Theists only please

            ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
            Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment

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