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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    On the premise Christ died for the whole of humanity - everyone's name is in it. Only those who believe in God's Christ(1 John 5:4, 5) will not have it blotted out (Revelation 3:5).
    I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right. How can a name be blotted out without having been in the book in the first place?
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right. How can a name be blotted out without having been in the book in the first place?
      That does not follow. Of course a name can only be blotted out if it's written in the first place, but that doesn't mean every name is written in the book in the first place. It is, after all, the book of life - and we are only made alive in Christ Jesus through the waters of regeneration - baptism (Col. 2:11-14, Rom 6:4).

      Rev. 3:5 is referring to believers (of the church of Sardis), not everyone - and from Rev. 2:26, it appears that overcoming is tied with enduring to the end. See also Luke 10:20, Rev. 13:8, and Rev. 17:8, which appear to directly contradict his premise.

      Source: Rev 13:8

      All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Source: Rev 17:8

      The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and shall be present.

      © Copyright Original Source



      I think I'll take that clear language over an assumed word linkage between two unrelated passages.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        That does not follow. Of course a name can only be blotted out if it's written in the first place, but that doesn't mean every name is written in the book in the first place. It is, after all, the book of life - and we are only made alive in Christ Jesus through the waters of regeneration - baptism (Col. 2:11-14, Rom 6:4).
        This argument is based in the false gospel of baptismal regeneration. Water baptism is not part of the gospel, but is a believer's observance which accompanies the gospel. As the Apostle was so instructed by Christ, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." (1 Corinthians 1:17). Water baptism is a work of faith, done with hands, signifying the believer's death with Christ from this world through faith, and that the believer is going to live for God and not this world.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          This argument is based in the false gospel of baptismal regeneration. Water baptism is not part of the gospel, but is a believer's observance which accompanies the gospel.
          Why are you arguing against a position I do not hold?
          As the Apostle was so instructed by Christ, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." (1 Corinthians 1:17).
          This in no way minimizes the importance of water baptism.
          Water baptism is a work of faith, done with hands, signifying the believer's death with Christ from this world through faith, and that the believer is going to live for God and not this world.
          Which is the believer's new life in Christ, hence their name being written in the book of life.

          Now, do you have any comment on the rest of my post?
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Why are you arguing against a position I do not hold?
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            . . . we are only made alive in Christ Jesus through the waters of regeneration - baptism (Col. 2:11-14, Rom 6:4).

            Which is the believer's new life in Christ, hence their name being written in the book of life.
            Not at water baptism.
            ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
            Now, do you have any comment on the rest of my post?
            Sure.

            Regarding Revelation 13:8, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Those names were removed. And the Lamb of God was crucified in the 1st century, which is since [from] the time of the foundation of the world.
            Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2015, 02:21 PM.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #36
              Baptism is the appropriate response to the gospel (Acts 2:37-38). Did you even look at the scriptures I gave in support of my statement?
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Not at water baptism.
              ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
              In a sense. God operates outside of time. Our perspective is from within time, however. And if the names are written according as he hath chosen us, then only those names which have been chosen are written, yes? That would seem to invalidate your argument.
              Regarding Revelation 13:8, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Those names were removed. And the Lamb of God was crucified in the 1st century, which is since [from] the time of the foundation of the world.
              You have an odd way of parsing English. The foundation of the world is the beginning, i.e., Genesis 1:1. Do I need to draw you a sentence diagram to show the object of each prepositional phrase? ". . . whose names are not written (in the book of life of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world." In other words, the names were never written "in the book of life of the Lamb slain."
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Baptism is the appropriate response to the gospel (Acts 2:37-38). Did you even look at the scriptures I gave in support of my statement?
                Yes, and I agree water baptism is not only the appropriate response, but is commanded to be done (Acts 10:48).
                In a sense. God operates outside of time. Our perspective is from within time, however. And if the names are written according as he hath chosen us, then only those names which have been chosen are written, yes? That would seem to invalidate your argument.
                That is limited atonement view. I am of the persuasion that all names start out in the book of life. On the account Christ died for all.
                You have an odd way of parsing English. The foundation of the world is the beginning, i.e., Genesis 1:1. Do I need to draw you a sentence diagram to show the object of each prepositional phrase? ". . . whose names are not written (in the book of life of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world." In other words, the names were never written "in the book of life of the Lamb slain."
                Again, the limited atonement view. There is a difference between "before" and "from." The word translated as "from" also carries the meaning "since" which can have the connotation of being afterwards. See Matthew 24:21, Luke 24:21. Which influences my understanding of Revelation 13:8.
                Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2015, 11:39 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Yes, and I agree water baptism is not only the appropriate response, but is commanded to be done (Acts 10:48).That is limited atonement view. I am of the persuasion that all names start out in the book of life. On the account Christ died for all.
                  No, it's not 'limited atonement view.' I agree that Christ died for all, but His death is not what records our names in the book of life.
                  Again, the limited atonement view. There is a difference between "before" and "from." The word translated as "from" also carries the meaning "since" which can have the connotation of being afterwards. See Matthew 24:21, Luke 24:21. Which influences my understanding of Revelation 13:8.
                  You're straining here, allowing your a priori beliefs to unduly influence your interpretation of the text. And your assertion that any other view is 'limited atonement' is nuts. Everyone has the opportunity to have their name written in the book of life.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    No, it's not 'limited atonement view.' I agree that Christ died for all, but His death is not what records our names in the book of life.
                    Do you have a Scripture which shows when a name is put in the Book of Life? Otherwise it is a matter of interpretation. And interpretations do have reasons.
                    You're straining here, allowing your a priori beliefs to unduly influence your interpretation of the text. And your assertion that any other view is 'limited atonement' is nuts. Everyone has the opportunity to have their name written in the book of life.
                    At best this is an interpretation on your part. Have you done the study?

                    ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -- Psalm 69:27, 28.

                    Then note the words of Moses, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . ." -- Exodus 32:32
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Do you have a Scripture which shows when a name is put in the Book of Life? Otherwise it is a matter of interpretation. And interpretations do have reasons.
                      Your interpretation is at variance with every other interpretation I've seen, implying as it does that everyone starts out saved. It is, if anything, Origenist in that regard.
                      At best this is an interpretation on your part. Have you done the study?

                      ". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -- Psalm 69:27, 28.

                      Then note the words of Moses, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . ." -- Exodus 32:32
                      I wouldn't go so far as to say I've studied the topic extensively. As far as I can tell, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living" is a circumlocution for "let them die." Regardless, both verbs appear to be in the same tense, denoting subsequent action - so that doesn't help your interpretation. Ex. 32:32 provides you no assistance, because I acknowledge that it is possible that someone's name can be written and subsequently expunged.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Your interpretation is at variance with every other interpretation I've seen, implying as it does that everyone starts out saved. It is, if anything, Origenist in that regard.
                        So childern who die as children, who do not have Christian parents, perish by default in the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Meaning Christ only died for sinners who are old enough to believe.

                        I hold the view Christ died for all. That only those who come of age where they must receive Christ will perish by not remaining in Him (John 15:6; Matthew 18:3; John 3:3).

                        I wouldn't go so far as to say I've studied the topic extensively. As far as I can tell, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living" is a circumlocution for "let them die." Regardless, both verbs appear to be in the same tense, denoting subsequent action - so that doesn't help your interpretation. Ex. 32:32 provides you no assistance, because I acknowledge that it is possible that someone's name can be written and subsequently expunged.
                        OK.
                        Again, I am of the persuasion everyone's name is in the book for whom Christ died. And only through trusting in God's Christ will that person's name remain ( 1 John 5:4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).

                        "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -- Matthew 16:26.
                        Last edited by 37818; 03-25-2015, 08:03 AM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Christ only died for sinners who are old enough to believe.

                          I hold the view Christ died for all.
                          The second sentence contradicts the first one.
                          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                            The second sentence contradicts the first one.
                            Of course. The first one is what one would have to conclude if names are not in the book of life until some kind of act of faith.

                            The second, is my view, all names are in the book of life by reason Christ died for all. Only to be removed if one does not ultimately receive Christ prior to one's death (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:11-15).

                            To keep one's name in the book of life (1 John 5:1, 4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              So childern who die as children, who do not have Christian parents, perish by default in the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Meaning Christ only died for sinners who are old enough to believe.
                              I frankly do not know how God handles that, but it doesn't mean what you think it means. Further, is this any worse than a view in which God blots out the name of everyone when they reach the age of accountability, whatever that is, and then writes them back in again if they become saved?
                              I hold the view Christ died for all. That only those who come of age where they must receive Christ will perish by not remaining in Him (John 15:6; Matthew 18:3; John 3:3).
                              Except almost no one accepts Christ at the instant of the age of accountability.
                              OK.
                              Again, I am of the persuasion everyone's name is in the book for whom Christ died. And only through trusting in God's Christ will that person's name remain ( 1 John 5:4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).

                              "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -- Matthew 16:26.
                              Yes, you've said that already. Repeating it doesn't make it any more true, or provide further support.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Of course. The first one is what one would have to conclude if names are not in the book of life until some kind of act of faith.

                                The second, is my view, all names are in the book of life by reason Christ died for all. Only to be removed if one does not ultimately receive Christ prior to one's death (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:11-15).
                                This view makes Luke 10:20 meaningless.
                                Source: Luke 10:20

                                Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                If everyone's name is written in the book of life until they die without Christ, what grounds are there for rejoicing? None. It's like a soccer league where everyone gets a trophy.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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