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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostI hadn't thought of it that way. You're right. How can a name be blotted out without having been in the book in the first place?
Rev. 3:5 is referring to believers (of the church of Sardis), not everyone - and from Rev. 2:26, it appears that overcoming is tied with enduring to the end. See also Luke 10:20, Rev. 13:8, and Rev. 17:8, which appear to directly contradict his premise.
I think I'll take that clear language over an assumed word linkage between two unrelated passages.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat does not follow. Of course a name can only be blotted out if it's written in the first place, but that doesn't mean every name is written in the book in the first place. It is, after all, the book of life - and we are only made alive in Christ Jesus through the waters of regeneration - baptism (Col. 2:11-14, Rom 6:4).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThis argument is based in the false gospel of baptismal regeneration. Water baptism is not part of the gospel, but is a believer's observance which accompanies the gospel.
As the Apostle was so instructed by Christ, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Water baptism is a work of faith, done with hands, signifying the believer's death with Christ from this world through faith, and that the believer is going to live for God and not this world.
Now, do you have any comment on the rest of my post?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhy are you arguing against a position I do not hold?Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post. . . we are only made alive in Christ Jesus through the waters of regeneration - baptism (Col. 2:11-14, Rom 6:4).
Which is the believer's new life in Christ, hence their name being written in the book of life.
". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
Now, do you have any comment on the rest of my post?
Regarding Revelation 13:8, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Those names were removed. And the Lamb of God was crucified in the 1st century, which is since [from] the time of the foundation of the world.Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2015, 02:21 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Baptism is the appropriate response to the gospel (Acts 2:37-38). Did you even look at the scriptures I gave in support of my statement?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostNot at water baptism.
". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . ." -- Ephesians 1:4.
Regarding Revelation 13:8, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Those names were removed. And the Lamb of God was crucified in the 1st century, which is since [from] the time of the foundation of the world.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostBaptism is the appropriate response to the gospel (Acts 2:37-38). Did you even look at the scriptures I gave in support of my statement?In a sense. God operates outside of time. Our perspective is from within time, however. And if the names are written according as he hath chosen us, then only those names which have been chosen are written, yes? That would seem to invalidate your argument.
You have an odd way of parsing English. The foundation of the world is the beginning, i.e., Genesis 1:1. Do I need to draw you a sentence diagram to show the object of each prepositional phrase? ". . . whose names are not written (in the book of life of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world." In other words, the names were never written "in the book of life of the Lamb slain."Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2015, 11:39 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes, and I agree water baptism is not only the appropriate response, but is commanded to be done (Acts 10:48).That is limited atonement view. I am of the persuasion that all names start out in the book of life. On the account Christ died for all.
Again, the limited atonement view. There is a difference between "before" and "from." The word translated as "from" also carries the meaning "since" which can have the connotation of being afterwards. See Matthew 24:21, Luke 24:21. Which influences my understanding of Revelation 13:8.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNo, it's not 'limited atonement view.' I agree that Christ died for all, but His death is not what records our names in the book of life.
You're straining here, allowing your a priori beliefs to unduly influence your interpretation of the text. And your assertion that any other view is 'limited atonement' is nuts. Everyone has the opportunity to have their name written in the book of life.
". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -- Psalm 69:27, 28.
Then note the words of Moses, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . ." -- Exodus 32:32. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostDo you have a Scripture which shows when a name is put in the Book of Life? Otherwise it is a matter of interpretation. And interpretations do have reasons.
At best this is an interpretation on your part. Have you done the study?
". . . Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -- Psalm 69:27, 28.
Then note the words of Moses, ". . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . ." -- Exodus 32:32Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYour interpretation is at variance with every other interpretation I've seen, implying as it does that everyone starts out saved. It is, if anything, Origenist in that regard.
I hold the view Christ died for all. That only those who come of age where they must receive Christ will perish by not remaining in Him (John 15:6; Matthew 18:3; John 3:3).
I wouldn't go so far as to say I've studied the topic extensively. As far as I can tell, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living" is a circumlocution for "let them die." Regardless, both verbs appear to be in the same tense, denoting subsequent action - so that doesn't help your interpretation. Ex. 32:32 provides you no assistance, because I acknowledge that it is possible that someone's name can be written and subsequently expunged.
Again, I am of the persuasion everyone's name is in the book for whom Christ died. And only through trusting in God's Christ will that person's name remain ( 1 John 5:4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -- Matthew 16:26.Last edited by 37818; 03-25-2015, 08:03 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostChrist only died for sinners who are old enough to believe.
I hold the view Christ died for all.The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu
[T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostThe second sentence contradicts the first one.
The second, is my view, all names are in the book of life by reason Christ died for all. Only to be removed if one does not ultimately receive Christ prior to one's death (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:11-15).
To keep one's name in the book of life (1 John 5:1, 4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo childern who die as children, who do not have Christian parents, perish by default in the judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Meaning Christ only died for sinners who are old enough to believe.
I hold the view Christ died for all. That only those who come of age where they must receive Christ will perish by not remaining in Him (John 15:6; Matthew 18:3; John 3:3).
OK.
Again, I am of the persuasion everyone's name is in the book for whom Christ died. And only through trusting in God's Christ will that person's name remain ( 1 John 5:4, 5, 12; Revelation 3:5).
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" -- Matthew 16:26.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOf course. The first one is what one would have to conclude if names are not in the book of life until some kind of act of faith.
The second, is my view, all names are in the book of life by reason Christ died for all. Only to be removed if one does not ultimately receive Christ prior to one's death (Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:11-15).
If everyone's name is written in the book of life until they die without Christ, what grounds are there for rejoicing? None. It's like a soccer league where everyone gets a trophy.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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