Rule of Faith

[Cow Poke]

The first list is how we come to know [anything]. The second list is what we come to know as a Christian. Based on the witness of holy Scripture.

The Holy Spirit don't need no sinkin' lists.

[Pentecost]

The first list is how we come to know [anything]. The second list is what we come to know as a Christian. Based on the witness of holy Scripture.

Thank you for that explanation. I suppose I did not understand because I make no division between what I learn in the world, and what I learn as a Christian. All truth is God's truth.

Ecumenical councils are considered binding, and the it is believed that the Holy Spirit has preserved them as such. In order to be accepted as "ecumenical", however, the council must be a) church-wide, b) accepted by the laity, and c) ratified by a subsequent church-wide council. Local synods are not considered binding, but at times ecumenical councils have ratified the canons of local councils (thus making them binding).

So from the Orthodox perspective does an Ecumenical Council require participation by the Roman Catholics? And what about the last Ecumenical Council? Was it then ratified at a subsequent church-wide council that was not itself ratified?

Sort of. The presence of the Holy Spirit can be felt, but salvation should never be taken for granted.

Thank you for that clarification.

Experiences can be counterfeited, so the fathers warn not to place much stock in them. There is a strong tradition (at least as far back as the 4th century - see here) of being able to experience the uncreated light (or energy) of God, but this is nearly always limited to monastics.

Thank you for explaining.

This development has always been done, however, in the light of previous revelation; at each of the church councils dealing with Christology, recourse was made to the writings of the church fathers to ensure continuity with tradition.

So why would it not be fair to say that they play a role, but an unimportant one in understanding the faith?

[One Bad Pig]

So from the Orthodox perspective does an Ecumenical Council require participation by the Roman Catholics?

Effectively, yes; there hasn't been one since the schism.

And what about the last Ecumenical Council? Was it then ratified at a subsequent church-wide council that was not itself ratified?

Yes, it was; the last Ecumenical Council (in 787) was ratified by a subsequent council in 843 (which essentially met solely to confirm the council of 787).

So why would it not be fair to say that they play a role, but an unimportant one in understanding the faith?

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral implies that all four play important roles, yes? In Orthodoxy, they don't. I just wanted to make that distinction.

[KingsGambit]

I can't agree with the perspective that Scripture and looking to the Holy Spirit alone are sufficient because of how often genuine Christians look at the same Bible verses and interpret them differently (without looking anything up).

[Truthseeker]

Experiences can be counterfeited, so the fathers warn not to place much stock in them.

Counterfeited by Satan?

[37818]

The Holy Spirit don't need no sinkin' lists.

He doesn't, but He thinks we do: 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. Matthew 15:19. Galatians 5:19-21 and Galatians 5:22-23. Ephesians 4:3-6 and Ephesians 6:12-19. To list a few of many lists found in the word of God. Then there are the books of the Bible, that is also a list.

[Cow Poke]

He doesn't, but He thinks we do: 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. Matthew 15:19. Galatians 5:19-21 and Galatians 5:22-23. Ephesians 4:3-6 and Ephesians 6:12-19. To list a few of many lists found in the word of God. Then there are the books of the Bible, that is also a list.

Yeah, but the most important list is the Lamb's Book of Life - if your name's not there, you're TOAST!

[One Bad Pig]

Counterfeited by Satan?

Or someone under his control, yes (Mat. 24:24 and parallels, 2 Cor 11:14).

[Pentecost]

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral implies that all four play important roles, yes? In Orthodoxy, they don't. I just wanted to make that distinction.

I apologize, I think I sounded a little accusatory, it was not intended. Your point then is made.

Counterfeited by Satan?

That can be for the charismatic thread in Christianity, if you want to discuss it more (you would be needed OBP), in fact I'd like to be part of it I think, but it does not belong in this thread.

I can't agree with the perspective that Scripture and looking to the Holy Spirit alone are sufficient because of how often genuine Christians look at the same Bible verses and interpret them differently (without looking anything up).

Who are you saying that in response to KG?

[37818]

Yeah, but the most important list is the Lamb's Book of Life - if your name's not there, you're TOAST!

On the premise Christ died for the whole of humanity - everyone's name is in it. Only those who believe in God's Christ(1 John 5:4, 5) will not have it blotted out (Revelation 3:5).

[Cow Poke]

On the premise Christ died for the whole of humanity - everyone's name is in it. Only those who believe in God's Christ(1 John 5:4, 5) will not have it blotted out (Revelation 3:5).

Interesting -- not that I agree (yet) but I recently heard a sermon by J Vernon Magee where he quotes some early theologians saying the same thing. The bottom line is whose names are in there at "roll call".

[One Bad Pig]

On the premise Christ died for the whole of humanity - everyone's name is in it. Only those who believe in God's Christ(1 John 5:4, 5) will not have it blotted out (Revelation 3:5).

This appears to be contradicted by Luke 10:20, Rev. 13:8, and Rev. 17:8.

[KingsGambit]

Who are you saying that in response to KG?

CP only listed the Bible and the Holy Spirit in post #2. We all know he isn't actually a person who believes in no more than those resources, so I'm not responding to him, but rather to a similar perspective taken to a much further extreme. There are some people who actually literally only believe in considering these two. In the book JPH and AP wrote on inerrancy recently, they referred to one modern Bible teacher (F. David Farnell if I recall correctly) who believes that the Holy Spirit will inevitably give a true Christian the right interpretation of Scripture.

[Cow Poke]

CP only listed the Bible and the Holy Spirit in post #2. We all know he isn't actually a person who believes in no more than those resources, so I'm not responding to him,

The Bible teaches us about the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth -- including the other resources as the Spirit leads. I would, however, most definitely put the Bible and the Holy Spirit at the top of the list.

but rather to a similar perspective taken to a much further extreme. There are some people who actually literally only believe in considering these two. In the book JPH and AP wrote on inerrancy recently, they referred to one modern Bible teacher (F. David Farnell if I recall correctly) who believes that the Holy Spirit will inevitably give a true Christian the right interpretation of Scripture.

Which is why we often end up with really far out cults.

[Pentecost]

CP only listed the Bible and the Holy Spirit in post #2. We all know he isn't actually a person who believes in no more than those resources, so I'm not responding to him, but rather to a similar perspective taken to a much further extreme. There are some people who actually literally only believe in considering these two. In the book JPH and AP wrote on inerrancy recently, they referred to one modern Bible teacher (F. David Farnell if I recall correctly) who believes that the Holy Spirit will inevitably give a true Christian the right interpretation of Scripture.

Ok, that's what I was thinking .