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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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The truth about limited atonement.

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  • The truth about limited atonement.

    If true it does not change a thing. Here is why: We do not know who all of God's elect are. So we must preach to all, believe the gospel, that God sent His Son to die for the ungodly. Who are the ungodly? All men both of the elect and non-elect. Did not Christ only secure salvation for His elect? Indeed He did. We still need to preach the gospel as if Christ died for every man.
    Last edited by 37818; 02-27-2015, 03:21 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    If true it does not change a thing. Here is why: We do not know who all of God's elect are. So we must preach to all, believe the gospel, that God sent His Son to die for the ungodly. Who are the ungodly? All men both of the elect and non-elect. Did not Christ only secure salvation for His elect? Indeed He did. We still need to preach the gospel as if Christ died for every man.
    Why? If they are elect, they need absolutely nothing from us. Not a single word.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Why? If they are elect, they need absolutely nothing from us. Not a single word.
      That is a false gospel view.

      ". . . How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -- Romans 10:14, 15.

      The elect are the one's who will hear and then believe the gospel. The non-elect will not believe upon hearing.

      Jesus tells the non-elect,
      ". . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." -- John 8:47.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        If true it does not change a thing. Here is why: We do not know who all of God's elect are. So we must preach to all, believe the gospel, that God sent His Son to die for the ungodly. Who are the ungodly? All men both of the elect and non-elect. Did not Christ only secure salvation for His elect? Indeed He did. We still need to preach the gospel as if Christ died for every man.
        Why? If they are elect, they need absolutely nothing from us. Not a single word.
        Except that God has set up the process so that we are involved. It is the preaching of the gospel that God uses to draw His elect out of the world. Paul said "Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which works in me mightily."

        Comment


        • #5
          The election is God's. Christ's payment for sin secures the salvation of those whom God saves and keeps. [Belief in limited atonement is not required to understand this.]
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            The election is God's. Christ's payment for sin secures the salvation of those whom God saves and keeps. [Belief in limited atonement is not required to understand this.]
            "Limited" could be regarded as pleonastic. If one is elected, atonement is in effect for him or her. If not, atonement is not.
            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

            [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The election is God's. Christ's payment for sin secures the salvation of those whom God saves and keeps. [Belief in limited atonement is not required to understand this.]
              If it is God who saves and keeps, then atonement is limited to who God saves and keeps - yet all can be saved (universalism) if God decides to save and keep all but it would still be limited atonement. Limited atonement does not refer to who is saved but to who decides who will be saved.

              Thus, the Calvinist position. God decides whom to save and then sends His son to affect their salvation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                If it is God who saves and keeps, then atonement is limited to who God saves and keeps - yet all can be saved (universalism) if God decides to save and keep all but it would still be limited atonement. Limited atonement does not refer to who is saved but to who decides who will be saved.

                Thus, the Calvinist position. God decides whom to save and then sends His son to affect their salvation.
                The argument of universalism is biblically nothing more than a strawman argument, since we both know the word of God does not teach universalism. As for God's election of His elect, it is done sovereignly "through sanctification of the Spirit."
                Last edited by 37818; 02-28-2015, 03:10 PM.
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  That is a false gospel view.

                  ". . . How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -- Romans 10:14, 15.

                  The elect are the one's who will hear and then believe the gospel. The non-elect will not believe upon hearing.

                  Jesus tells the non-elect,
                  ". . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." -- John 8:47.
                  Where did you hide the pits from those cherry-picked out of context verses?
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                    Except that God has set up the process so that we are involved.
                    Exactly. And that is why "limited atonement" is faulty. God desires that ALL come to salvation (1 Tim 2:4)

                    It is the preaching of the gospel that God uses to draw His elect out of the world.
                    It is the preaching of the Gospel that people respond and thus become the elect that God foreknew. God did not directly CAUSE them to believe though. Without human free will, then God becomes nothing more than a puppet master who created humans ex nihilo to be nothing more than fodder, and because He created them and everything about them, then HE is to blame for their sin. There is no getting around that. If there is no true free will, then everything we do and everything we are is nothing more than a program God wrote, and us obeying our programming can not be labeled "sin" since it is obedience to God's programming.

                    Paul said "Whereunto I also labor, striving according to his working, which works in me mightily."
                    Which explains Paul's empowerment to preach the Gospel authoritatively to all so that some might believe.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Where did you hide the pits from those cherry-picked out of context verses?
                      Contrary to context? Or true to the whole council of God? From context are any quotes. ". . ."
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                        Except that God has set up the process so that we are involved.
                        Exactly. And that is why "limited atonement" is faulty. God desires that ALL come to salvation (1 Tim 2:4)
                        The term, "all," refers to Jews and gentiles (as opposed to just the Jews) with this meaning established by Ephesians 3. If you want to change this meaning, you need an argument, with supporting Scriptures, to do so. The "limited" in limited atonement mans that salvation decisions are limited to God - the "U" of TULIP. God chooses whom to save and then sends His son to save them - the atonement being limited to those whom God has chosen to save.

                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                        It is the preaching of the gospel that God uses to draw His elect out of the world.
                        It is the preaching of the Gospel that people respond and thus become the elect that God foreknew. God did not directly CAUSE them to believe though. Without human free will, then God becomes nothing more than a puppet master who created humans ex nihilo to be nothing more than fodder, and because He created them and everything about them, then HE is to blame for their sin. There is no getting around that. If there is no true free will, then everything we do and everything we are is nothing more than a program God wrote, and us obeying our programming can not be labeled "sin" since it is obedience to God's programming.
                        They are the elect of God before the point in time when they personally respond to the gospel. Paul says in Galatians, "...when it pleased God, who separated me from my motherís womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:..." God chose when to reveal Christ to Paul. Paul immediately responded. That is the way it happens. God's elect were identified in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world - "...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,..." (Rev 17)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                          The term, "all," refers to Jews and gentiles (as opposed to just the Jews) with this meaning established by Ephesians 3. If you want to change this meaning, you need an argument, with supporting Scriptures, to do so. The "limited" in limited atonement mans that salvation decisions are limited to God - the "U" of TULIP. God chooses whom to save and then sends His son to save them - the atonement being limited to those whom God has chosen to save.
                          The "U" is for unconditional. But the election is conditional upon God's sovereign foreknowledge through the sanctification of the Spirit, the election being unmerited on the part of God's elect.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                            The term, "all," refers to Jews and gentiles (as opposed to just the Jews) with this meaning established by Ephesians 3.
                            All means ALL. ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. Just as in Ephesians 3:9, God created ALL things, did He not? God desires everyone to return to a state of communion with Him, which is what He created Adam and Eve to do in the beginning. In context, Paul is telling Timothy to pray, not only for believers, but kings and all who are rulers too. Then Paul uses the same word that he has twice used to include "all people" and "all who are in authority" then says God desires "all men" to come to Him and then that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all. That usage pretty much plucks the L petal clean off of the flower.

                            If you want to change this meaning, you need an argument, with supporting Scriptures, to do so.
                            I've already given it. 1 Tim 2:4 and surrounding context shows that 1) we are to pray for all people, believer and non-believer, 2) We are to pray for all leaders and people in authority, believer and non-believer, 3) That God desires everyone to come to Him through repentance, and 4) Jesus died for all men, believer and non-believer.

                            The "limited" in limited atonement mans that salvation decisions are limited to God - the "U" of TULIP.
                            And therefore, since God always gets what He desires, there is absolutely no purpose for you to preach to anyone. God saves the elect whether they are preached to or not.

                            God chooses whom to save and then sends His son to save them - the atonement being limited to those whom God has chosen to save.
                            And therefore, no amount of human intervention is necessary. Preaching is a waste of time.


                            They are the elect of God before the point in time when they personally respond to the gospel.
                            They are programs. Just like the non-elect. But the problem remains that even the non-elect are obeying their programming. God created them and everything about them ex nihilo and the program therefore can not justly be held in obedience to its programming. It did exactly what God created it to do. And claiming God created the agent to intentionally fail, then punished it for failing as intended while providing other agents with programming that would reward them for the same obedience to His programming is beyond unjust. We are ALL made in the image of God, and thus able to respond to His call to repent and accept His offer of salvation through Jesus Christ. God so loved the WHOLE WORLD that He gave His Son, Jesus Christ.

                            Paul says in Galatians, "...when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:..." God chose when to reveal Christ to Paul.
                            This is a SPECIAL revelation that made Paul an Apostle. It is also a unique calling that is being discussed, not salvation itself.

                            Paul immediately responded. That is the way it happens. God's elect were identified in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world - "...they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,..." (Rev 17)
                            Through God's foreknowledge of our choices, yes. But His writing the names did not DIRECTLY CAUSE them to believe. They are not God's puppets who are reciting a pre-written script.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rhutchin View Post
                              The term, "all," refers to Jews and gentiles (as opposed to just the Jews) with this meaning established by Ephesians 3. If you want to change this meaning, you need an argument, with supporting Scriptures, to do so.
                              The meaning of 'all' in 1 Timothy 2:4 is determined by the context of Ephesians 3?????


                              I am guessing this is a typo...right?

                              Comment

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