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Vibrant Churches led by Women Pastors

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  • #16
    Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
    Well, I go to a church that is growing quite a bit and has female pastoral leadership. That being said, most of the female pastors are married to a male pastor - and they lead together.

    The 'head pastor' I guess would be male -- although he leads with his wife and I don't think he would call himself THE head pastor.

    The church is growing and vibrant. Both the male and female pastors preach from the pulpit.

    To be clear -- I don't know if the church would have the same dynamic with only female pastors or female lead pastors. As it stands now, the pastors would function more along the lines of a parents where responsibilities and leadership is shared in mutual submission....



    [as a side note -- a few years back I wouldn't have imagined listening to a female pastor from the pulpit -- and now I actually appreciate it as a change of pace (although admittedly I appreciate the teaching of the head 'male' pastor the best)
    Thanks, Phat.... If you want to, you could PM me the church's website so I could check it out --- but no biggie! Completely up to you.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      My church is technically "mainline" by denomination, but is clearly evangelical in practice. Sometimes it's not easy to tell where the lines are.
      Agreed. The local practice may greatly differ from the mainline reputation.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        Agreed. The local practice may greatly differ from the mainline reputation.
        And a lot of this comes back to the type of community and the pastor they chose, or - if the pastor has been there a long time - the pastor's influence over / in the congregation.

        Which is why I'm interested in this.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          And a lot of this comes back to the type of community and the pastor they chose, or - if the pastor has been there a long time - the pastor's influence over / in the congregation.

          Which is why I'm interested in this.
          I find this an interesting topic, too. I suppose this would be considered a specialty area under Organizational Behavior. I'm more interested these days in how the organizational behavior inhibits the service of God.

          Based on my experiences in churches, these are the generalizations I have concluded.
          • If the church has been established a long time, the congregation will tend to chose a pastor to maintain the status quo. Even when it may become obvious the body is dying, that status quo will continue to run the church. Also, the building may become all important and has to be kept at all cost.
          • If the church is a new plant and non-denominational, the most dangerous time is when the founding pastor leaves. I have yet to see one of these successfully survive to a third pastor.
          • When I am looking at a church to join, I had better carefully consider the flaws and can I tolerate them. I am an idiot to expect that I can change a church culture. For example if the church does not have a high view of Scripture, I don't expect my presence to change that.


          Hope this is helpful.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #20
            All good points, but let me address this one...

            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            [*]If the church has been established a long time, the congregation will tend to chose a pastor to maintain the status quo. Even when it may become obvious the body is dying, that status quo will continue to run the church.
            OR they go overboard, as MY Church (the one I'm currently pastoring) did - and hire a YOUNG guy, because they realize they are otherwise dying. The previous pastor had been here 27 years, and probably overstayed his usefulness by about 2 or 3 years. So the Church - mostly older folks - called a young pastor fresh out of seminary, and he DRASTICALLY changed everything -- no more hymns, all new "7-11" music, got rid of the pulpit and "preached" (really "taught") from a bar stool and table in jeans and a t-shirt..... just "flipping the switch" instead of gradually guiding.....

            and the Church couldn't handle it. MOST of the established members ended up leaving, and the Church just went into deep turmoil -- those who stayed were either at war with the pastor, or at war with the few who stayed who supported him. After 8 years of the Church drying up and dying, he left, and I came to preach to 15 to 20 people in an auditorium that seats nearly 300.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              no more hymns


              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              all new "7-11" music


              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              got rid of the pulpit and "preached" (really "taught") from a bar stool and table in jeans and a t-shirt



              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                All good points, but let me address this one...

                OR they go overboard, as MY Church (the one I'm currently pastoring) did - and hire a YOUNG guy, because they realize they are otherwise dying. The previous pastor had been here 27 years, and probably overstayed his usefulness by about 2 or 3 years. So the Church - mostly older folks - called a young pastor fresh out of seminary, and he DRASTICALLY changed everything -- no more hymns, all new "7-11" music, got rid of the pulpit and "preached" (really "taught") from a bar stool and table in jeans and a t-shirt..... just "flipping the switch" instead of gradually guiding.....

                and the Church couldn't handle it. MOST of the established members ended up leaving, and the Church just went into deep turmoil -- those who stayed were either at war with the pastor, or at war with the few who stayed who supported him. After 8 years of the Church drying up and dying, he left, and I came to preach to 15 to 20 people in an auditorium that seats nearly 300.
                Have not personally run into this one. No argument. By the way, was the guy's name Mark Driscoll?

                Hiring as a senior or sole pastor a "fresh out of seminary" looks like it should raise lots of immediate red flags. Many of the pastor that have caused issues in my experience have been on their first pastorate. I suppose which seminary makes a difference, too.
                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                  Have not personally run into this one. No argument. By the way, was the guy's name Mark Driscoll?

                  Hiring as a senior or sole pastor a "fresh out of seminary" looks like it should raise lots of immediate red flags. Many of the pastor that have caused issues in my experience have been on their first pastorate. I suppose which seminary makes a difference, too.
                  This has been a concern of mine for a long time, particularly in Baptist Churches --- a "pulpit committee" will come up with a list of criterion for selecting "the new pastor", and sometimes, without realizing they're doing it - they eliminate the very man God would have sent them. They'll set an age limit, or a degree of education, or a number of years of experience, or .... sometimes the combination of the things they come up with are just too durn restrictive.

                  To me, it would be a WHOLE lot better if they entered a season of prayer, and diligently asked the Lord - "God send us the man you think we need at this time for your purpose".

                  I mean, JESUS or APOSTLE PAUL wouldn't even qualify the way they write their requirements.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    My late, former pastors (Pastor J. who passed away last year) wife, is an ordained AOG minister. When pastor was sick, and on special occasions like Mothers Day, she would preach. She still serves on our Regional Leadership council (Red River Region). But she was not the Head Pastor...technically, she was not on staff at all. But sometimes it seemed like it...Pastor J was always a proponent of women in leadership positions though. I serve as Head Usher as well as a Deacon, he always encouraged me to utilize a woman or two to usher and take up offerings. He also encouraged the congregation to nominate women as deacon candidates. It caused a lot of strife between those the two opposing sides in the debate. I know of several couples who left because he promoted it and at least one who left because he backed off on it...one of those no win situations...IMO...
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      This has been a concern of mine for a long time, particularly in Baptist Churches --- a "pulpit committee" will come up with a list of criterion for selecting "the new pastor", and sometimes, without realizing they're doing it - they eliminate the very man God would have sent them. They'll set an age limit, or a degree of education, or a number of years of experience, or .... sometimes the combination of the things they come up with are just too durn restrictive.

                      To me, it would be a WHOLE lot better if they entered a season of prayer, and diligently asked the Lord - "God send us the man you think we need at this time for your purpose".

                      I mean, JESUS or APOSTLE PAUL wouldn't even qualify the way they write their requirements.
                      pulpit committee member #1: What about this Jesus guy? How about him?

                      pulpit committee member #2: Are you kidding? He isn't married and has an arrest record. And have you seen that beard?

                      pulpit committee member #3: And he's way too young. Not enough experience.

                      pulpit committee member #1: Okay. Next

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        pulpit committee member #1: What about this Jesus guy? How about him?

                        pulpit committee member #2: Are you kidding? He isn't married and has an arrest record. And have you seen that beard?

                        pulpit committee member #3: And he's way too young. Not enough experience.

                        pulpit committee member #1: Okay. Next
                        Meeting #2:

                        Member #1: So, what about this Paul guy?
                        Member #2: Well, for starters: not his original name. The gall, refusing the name your parents gave you!
                        Member #3: Issues with his parents--have you seen how often he gets in trouble with the law? Causes riots, dragged before the court, and who knows what else.
                        Member #2: Not much to listen to, either. I heard he's bored at least one person to death. Yet his letters are hard to read.
                        Member #3: His vision isn't very good either--means he'll need extra help to get around
                        Member #1: Next!
                        No Silicon Heaven? Preposterous! Where would all the calculators go?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          All good points, but let me address this one...



                          OR they go overboard, as MY Church (the one I'm currently pastoring) did - and hire a YOUNG guy, because they realize they are otherwise dying. The previous pastor had been here 27 years, and probably overstayed his usefulness by about 2 or 3 years. So the Church - mostly older folks - called a young pastor fresh out of seminary, and he DRASTICALLY changed everything -- no more hymns, all new "7-11" music, got rid of the pulpit and "preached" (really "taught") from a bar stool and table in jeans and a t-shirt..... just "flipping the switch" instead of gradually guiding.....
                          And this is where wisdom plays SUCH a huge part in pastoring - it is is sort of wisdom that age tends to favor.

                          I know many young pastors fresh out of seminary who seem to know quite a bit Biblically - but still have a lot lacking in the leading department. The ones I have seen who come out 'knowing it all' and start out fresh in an area of high leadership have tended to hit some rough stretches...


                          This is actually one thing I have appreciated about my church since me and my wife started attending around 2 years ago. They are deliberately a 'generational church'...meaning: they are always trying to raise up new leaders and the next generation into leadership (without skipping a place of service). I have greatly appreciated that about the 'head' pastor -- he has consistently made it about raising up new leaders (&pastors) and pouring into them.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                            My late, former pastors (Pastor J. who passed away last year) wife, is an ordained AOG minister. When pastor was sick, and on special occasions like Mothers Day, she would preach. She still serves on our Regional Leadership council (Red River Region). But she was not the Head Pastor...technically, she was not on staff at all. But sometimes it seemed like it...Pastor J was always a proponent of women in leadership positions though. I serve as Head Usher as well as a Deacon, he always encouraged me to utilize a woman or two to usher and take up offerings. He also encouraged the congregation to nominate women as deacon candidates. It caused a lot of strife between those the two opposing sides in the debate. I know of several couples who left because he promoted it and at least one who left because he backed off on it...one of those no win situations...IMO...
                            I can appreciate this. Our church does have some female leadership and pastors. That being said, the church is also very big on headship. It seems to work out pretty well.


                            As I was thinking about this topic this morning, I was thinking about what a vibrant church should really look like. I think you will find churches that have male pastors that aren't vibrant at all -- and churches that allow for female leadership that are vibrant.

                            I think many of the female 'led' churches today that are clearly not vibrant, are lacking not because they have a female in leadership position but more likely because they have thrown out the very thing that causes churches to thrive and be vibrant (the leading of the Holy Spirit). They have chosen a person based on worldly values rather than Godly ones (this can be said for both male and female leaders).

                            IMHO, the one key ingredient to a thriving and vibrant church is the work of the Holy Spirit.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                              And this is where wisdom plays SUCH a huge part in pastoring - it is is sort of wisdom that age tends to favor.

                              I know many young pastors fresh out of seminary who seem to know quite a bit Biblically - but still have a lot lacking in the leading department. The ones I have seen who come out 'knowing it all' and start out fresh in an area of high leadership have tended to hit some rough stretches...
                              When I was in seminary ages ago, it was drilled into us regularly - "when you are new to a church, spend the first year just preaching Jesus and getting to know the people - do NOT try to make changes in the congregation".

                              This is actually one thing I have appreciated about my church since me and my wife started attending around 2 years ago. They are deliberately a 'generational church'...meaning: they are always trying to raise up new leaders and the next generation into leadership (without skipping a place of service). I have greatly appreciated that about the 'head' pastor -- he has consistently made it about raising up new leaders (&pastors) and pouring into them.
                              That's the way I was raised -- My pastor was constantly raising up "kids" like me, and I guess I just thought that was the norm. I'm really big into a Paul & Timothy model, and I'm really big into teaching that to young men....


                              2 Timothy 2:2 (KJV) And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                                I can appreciate this. Our church does have some female leadership and pastors. That being said, the church is also very big on headship. It seems to work out pretty well.
                                With ya so far....

                                As I was thinking about this topic this morning, I was thinking about what a vibrant church should really look like. I think you will find churches that have male pastors that aren't vibrant at all --
                                no doubt

                                and churches that allow for female leadership that are vibrant.
                                But the thread isn't about Churches that "allow for female leadership". (I know, you're "getting there" )

                                I think many of the female 'led' churches today that are clearly not vibrant, are lacking not because they have a female in leadership position but more likely because they have thrown out the very thing that causes churches to thrive and be vibrant (the leading of the Holy Spirit).
                                And, personally, I am not convinced yet that the Holy Spirit would put a female in the LEAD position of a Church.

                                They have chosen a person based on worldly values rather than Godly ones (this can be said for both male and female leaders).

                                IMHO, the one key ingredient to a thriving and vibrant church is the work of the Holy Spirit.
                                And, I think what often happens is that a church tends to "lower their standards" when they're in decline, and tend to get "who they can get" rather than who the Holy Spirit sends.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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