Originally posted by eustilou
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Understanding the value of Jesus' sacrifice
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Originally posted by eustilou View PostScratch that...
Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever (Heb. 13:5)
In the Father there is no variation or shifting shadw (Jam. 1:17)Last edited by 37818; 01-07-2015, 08:10 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostBefore the incarnation the verse does not apply. Since Son of God was not always a human. After the incarnation, death, burial, resurrection and ascension in the presence of God for us, as an immortal human, then that verse applies. God the Father didn't change. The Word who had two natures, one being "with God" something other than God, and "was God." How the Word was "with God" changed.
Hebrews says Jesus is the same, not the Word.
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Originally posted by eustilou View PostHello, I have a few questions about the sacrifice of Jesus:
What does it mean that God "gave" Jesus? (John 3:16) It appears more like God lent Jesus for 33 years and then He returned to the Father.
If I buy something precious with a diamond, and the seller smashes the diamond into pieces, then I take those smashed pieces and put them back together restoring the diamond as it was before... and I keep the diamond, what price did I pay for my purchase?
What is the permanency of Jesus' sacrifice? For God to have "given" something, it must have cost Him something... to lose something He doesn't have anymore.
What did it cost God to purchase us?
1 Corinthians 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
1 Corinthians 7:23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.
What is the value of suffering for 3 hours on a cross or being dead for 3 days in light of eternity? 3 hours or 3 days of suffering/death is infinitely negligible relative to eternity. Is it not so? What is missing from my understanding?
Scripture tells us the currency of the transaction happened with blood.
Acts 20:28 ... shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Revelation 5:9 ...You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
We also know the blood is precious.
1 Peter 1:18-19 ... you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ
It seems like most in the church don't appreciate much the value of the blood. We take the gospel too lightly because we don't properly appreciate the weight of Jesus' sacrifice.
What value does the shed blood have if Jesus is alive in heaven with the Father?
What is the permanency of the sacrifice? What was sacrificed? What was lost? What was given up?
To sacrifice means to give something you will not have anymore.
If you receive back what you gave, what sacrifice is that?
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