Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Biblical arguments against the existence of angels?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
    I know that. My question is, does the Bible actually mention spiritual beings other than God?
    Demons recur as a subject throughout the NT.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Demons recur as a subject throughout the NT.
      Yeah, and it doesn't seem like all of those can be explained as mental illness either.
      O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

      A neat video of dead languages!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
        Lamsa was obsessed with the idea that God be the only true source of life and power and thought angels somehow detract from this. I don't buy it but I do sympathize with those who want to take away any possible object of heavenly glory other than God. Angels can sometimes be a source of temptation to idolatry, as John found out.
        I was raised in a cult (The Way) that utilized Lamsa's work, especially his "For this reason was I spared" translation of Matthew 27:46. Left a strong distaste in my mouth.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          I was raised in a cult (The Way) that utilized Lamsa's work, especially his "For this reason was I spared" translation of Matthew 27:46. Left a strong distaste in my mouth.
          Yeah, I think there's a lot of false teaching in his work, definitely. His words about angels just always resonated with me for some reason.
          O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

          A neat video of dead languages!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kelp(p)
            No, jackass, I'm hoping that I've been misreading Scripture. If there is a BIBLICAL way to deny the existence of angels, I want to know because I wish the Bible had no angels in it. It would make things a lot easier. But if the Bible does in fact have angels in it, then I'll get over it. I never said I wanted to deny what Scripture actually says
            If you don't mind me asking, why do you feel things would be easier without angels? (Not looking to argue anything, just curious.)
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              If you don't mind me asking, why do you feel things would be easier without angels? (Not looking to argue anything, just curious.)
              One less potential temptation to idolatry. One less cause for skeptics to scoff at us. The existence of angels makes little sense.
              O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

              A neat video of dead languages!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Kelp(p) View Post
                One less potential temptation to idolatry. One less cause for skeptics to scoff at us. The existence of angels makes little sense.
                Gotcha. That did stir some thoughts up in my mind, but I did say I wouldn't debate over it
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  As for the necessity of angels: I think one possible way of thinking about it is that the holiness of God would suggest that it may be more appropriate for intermediaries to do much of God's work here on Earth. This is of course all speculative.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    As for the necessity of angels: I think one possible way of thinking about it is that the holiness of God would suggest that it may be more appropriate for intermediaries to do much of God's work here on Earth. This is of course all speculative.
                    If God is utterly transcendent and ineffable, then He cannot work directly with the physical creation without contradicting those attributes. As immaterial creatures, angels would be necessary go-betweens used by God to communicate with and affect creation (at least before the Incarnation). This is what I vaguely understand to be the Middle Platonist/Neo-Platonist conception of God, which was appropriated by early Christian philosophers to describe God (although only the Father was considered completely transcendent; we can only know the Father through what has been revealed by the Son and the Spirit).
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      If God is utterly transcendent and ineffable, then He cannot work directly with the physical creation without contradicting those attributes. As immaterial creatures, angels would be necessary go-betweens used by God to communicate with and affect creation (at least before the Incarnation). This is what I vaguely understand to be the Middle Platonist/Neo-Platonist conception of God, which was appropriated by early Christian philosophers to describe God (although only the Father was considered completely transcendent; we can only know the Father through what has been revealed by the Son and the Spirit).
                      The reasoning seems philosophically sound, but is this consistent with the accounts of Moses directly communicating with God on Mount Sinai, including seeing His back at one point? (I'm sure it is on some level as I can't imagine these philosophers would have overlooked something as seemingly obvious at this.)
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        As for the necessity of angels: I think one possible way of thinking about it is that the holiness of God would suggest that it may be more appropriate for intermediaries to do much of God's work here on Earth. This is of course all speculative.
                        KG: you as an individual human are completely superfluous: God doesn't need you and he already has other humans to worship him. You're not necessary.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          KG: you as an individual human are completely superfluous: God doesn't need you and he already has other humans to worship him. You're not necessary.
                          What does this have to do with my post?
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            What does this have to do with my post?
                            Just pointing out that the angels allegedly being "unnecessary" is a red herring.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              Just pointing out that the angels allegedly being "unnecessary" is a red herring.
                              Strictly speaking, yes, but when this is in the context of what seems to be a somewhat emotional difficulty in grasping a concept, it's helpful to address it on its own terms.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                The reasoning seems philosophically sound, but is this consistent with the accounts of Moses directly communicating with God on Mount Sinai, including seeing His back at one point? (I'm sure it is on some level as I can't imagine these philosophers would have overlooked something as seemingly obvious at this.)
                                I think that would be explained as Moses seeing/communicating with the dynamis (or power/energy of God) and not the ousia (or essence) of God. God the Son was conceived of as the dynamis as well as the logos of the Father. "Powers" is also an angelic rank. And don't forget that there are far more encounters with angels in the OT than the rare case of God interacting more or less directly with Moses.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X